The Open Mat Forum

Wrestling => International => Topic started by: a guest on April 15, 2011, 09:39:33 AM

Title: Any wrestling historians here?
Post by: a guest on April 15, 2011, 09:39:33 AM
I just had a coffee and a conversation with a guy who stated that it was the people of ancient Sudan (Kush, who lived south of ancient Egypt) who taught the Greeks how to wrestle.  Anyone hear this before?

I thought that the history of Greco-Roman wrestling was a misunderstanding.  That the rules of Greco-Roman wrestling were based upon a couple of pieces of art that were found by a French Archeologist, thus the rules are French, rather than Greek or Roman.

But I have never heard of the African influence in European wrestling before.  Anyone got the scoop?
Title: Re: Any wrestling historians here?
Post by: ViseGrip on April 15, 2011, 03:12:50 PM
I remember an article in SI many years ago about Bobby Douglas and his study of Nubian wrestling. He would be a good source. Amateur Wrestling News used to devote a section in each issue titled The Worlds Oldest Sport and it was written by Don Sayenga, who lives in Tuscon now I think. Im sure AWN could get you an address/.

Here is part of what wikie says about ancient wrestling...

The first documented evidence of wrestling in Egypt appeared circa 2300 BC, on the tomb of the Old Kingdom philosopher Ptahhotep. During the period of the New Kingdom (2000-1085 BC), additional Egyptian artwork (often on friezes), depicted Egyptian and Nubian wrestlers competing. Carroll notes striking similarities between these ancient depictions and those of the modern Nuba wrestlers.[3] On the 406 wrestling pairs found in the Middle Kingdom tombs at Beni Hasan in the Nile valley, nearly all of the techniques seen in modern freestyle wrestling could be found.[4] During the period of Ancient Greece (about 1100 to 146 BC), Greek wrestling was a popular form of martial art in which points were awarded for touching a competitor's back to the ground, forcing a competitor to submit or by forcing a competitor out of bounds (arena).[5] Three falls determined the winner. It was at least featured as a sport since the eighteenth Olympiad in 704 BC. Wrestling is described in the earliest celebrated works of Greek literature, the Iliad and the Odyssey.[6] Wrestlers were also depicted in action on many vases, sculptures, and coins, as well as in other literature. Other cultures featured wrestling at royal or religious celebrations, but the ancient Greeks structured their style of wrestling as part of a tournament where a single winner emerged from a pool of competitors.[4] Late Greek tradition also stated that Plato was known for wrestling in the Isthmian games.[7]
This continued into the Hellenistic period. Ptolemy II and Ptolemy III of Egypt were both depicted in art as victorious wrestlers. After the Roman conquest of the Greeks, Greek wrestling was absorbed by the Roman culture and became Roman Wrestling during the period of the Roman Empire (510 BC to AD 500).[citation needed] Arabic literature depicted Muhammad as a skilled wrestler, defeating a skeptic in a match at one point. By the eighth century, the Byzantine emperor Basil I, according to court historians, won in wrestling against a boastful wrestler from Bulgaria.[7]
Here is the information on the Carroll book cited above ^ Carroll, Scott T. (Summer 1988), "Wrestling in Ancient Nubia" (PDF), Journal of Sport History 15 (2): 121–137, ISSN 0094-1700

Here are a few other links about wrestling hiistory
Title: Re: Any wrestling historians here?
Post by: a guest on April 15, 2011, 11:12:59 PM
Thanks Vice!
Title: Re: Any wrestling historians here?
Post by: Rockhard on April 17, 2011, 04:02:52 PM
I wonder if they wore the new Caels back then.
Title: Re: Any wrestling historians here?
Post by: royboy on April 17, 2011, 06:41:02 PM
they wore asic tigers rock.
Title: Re: Any wrestling historians here?
Post by: ocianain on May 01, 2011, 07:39:30 PM
Wrestling is a universal activity, it's unlikely it "originated" anywhere. That being said, the Beni Hasan techniques are the oldest I know about, don't know much about ancient Nubian wrestling can't believe it predates Egypt though. Perhaps it's a later creation after exposure to Egyptian? As the remains of Kush are buried under 120 Deg F sand I can't say Kush as the origin of wrestling sounds reasonable. Sounds like Black Athena history to me. Read a good book called The Wrestlers, it was about a guy traveling the world wrestling the different styles.