The Open Mat Forum

Wrestling => International => Topic started by: FalconWrestlingKY on August 21, 2016, 01:17:19 PM

Title: Mongolian Protest
Post by: FalconWrestlingKY on August 21, 2016, 01:17:19 PM
I don't think I've ever seen coaches protest through stripping before

Also I think the Mongolians are completely right here people circle and celebrate early every tournament and it has happened several times already you can't just decide to call that with one second left completely changing the result.

It was a beautiful match leading up to that too
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: Bob H. on August 21, 2016, 01:27:41 PM
The Uzbek wrestler benefitted from some favorable calls against Gomez, then wins this way - the equivalent of a 2 point stall call at the buzzer in folkstyle.

Even though it was tacky, I enjoyed the hell out of the Mongolian protest.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: pipewrench on August 21, 2016, 05:18:55 PM
That was AWESOME.  and a bullshit call for the penalty pt. 
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: buck on August 21, 2016, 06:06:39 PM
I rip off my clothes at Outback when my steak is undercooked.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: FalconWrestlingKY on August 21, 2016, 07:18:19 PM
A couple people are telling me it's a traditional Mongol protest and it makes sense. It's a sort of "you've already cheated me, might as well take my clothes as well"

I should totally try the stripping thing the next time I challenge a call, looks like fun
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: Bob H. on August 21, 2016, 09:35:49 PM
I'm glad he stopped while he was still wearing his underwear.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: brycemus on August 21, 2016, 10:09:16 PM
I was hoping for a Bobby Knight
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: red viking on August 21, 2016, 10:35:11 PM
So the version I was watching didn't have any commentary and I was wondering what they were protesting. Sorry, I'm not up-to-date on the international rules. Was the call for passivity or celebrating during the match? He was obviously doing both.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: Bob H. on August 22, 2016, 08:36:32 AM
It was for "refusing to engage" - basically a passivity call.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: FalconWrestlingKY on August 22, 2016, 08:37:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-kFg86S6ww

In my opinion the Uzbek wasn't really trying to engage himself
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: lkwdsteve on August 22, 2016, 09:06:10 AM
So the version I was watching didn't have any commentary and I was wondering what they were protesting. Sorry, I'm not up-to-date on the international rules. Was the call for passivity or celebrating during the match? He was obviously doing both.
We see dancing away from an opponent in the final seconds fairly often. It's rarely called, but there is the danger that it COULD BE. In this case the combination of the celebratory fist pumps and the Uzbeki wrestler turning to face the referee with arms spread and a questioning look on his face may have spurred the referee to take his action.

Whether the referee was "ready and waiting" for some way to give the Uzbeki wrestler the win, as some are claiming, I'll leave to others.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: matref0 on August 22, 2016, 09:13:38 AM
It was for "refusing to engage" - basically a passivity call.

Fleeing the hold was the call for not engaging/contact.  Caution + 1.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: OkieSpladle on August 22, 2016, 10:04:11 AM
The egregious error here appears to be that UWW had been giving everyone direction (including US coaches at the Olympic trials) that the fleeing caution and 1 in the last 30 seconds would only be given after an attention (like the attention Snyder got in the gold medal match).  The Mongolian got no such warning, just the point called against him.  UWW relies on interpretation and direction to keep its rules up to date (freestyle/Greco has always been that way) so, if that direction was given, this call was especially bad.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: FalconWrestlingKY on August 22, 2016, 10:49:31 AM
The egregious error here appears to be that UWW had been giving everyone direction (including US coaches at the Olympic trials) that the fleeing caution and 1 in the last 30 seconds would only be given after an attention (like the attention Snyder got in the gold medal match).  The Mongolian got no such warning, just the point called against him.  UWW relies on interpretation and direction to keep its rules up to date (freestyle/Greco has always been that way) so, if that direction was given, this call was especially bad.

If that's the case then it's even worse. Any word on if Mongolia filed a formal protest?
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: a guest on August 22, 2016, 10:55:50 AM
A couple people are telling me it's a traditional Mongol protest and it makes sense. It's a sort of "you've already cheated me, might as well take my clothes as well"

I should totally try the stripping thing the next time I challenge a call, looks like fun

I hope this becomes the norm in protesting/challenging bad calls.

Awaiting the next time Bill Belichick argues a holding call.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: matref0 on August 22, 2016, 11:01:49 AM
The egregious error here appears to be that UWW had been giving everyone direction (including US coaches at the Olympic trials) that the fleeing caution and 1 in the last 30 seconds would only be given after an attention (like the attention Snyder got in the gold medal match).  The Mongolian got no such warning, just the point called against him.  UWW relies on interpretation and direction to keep its rules up to date (freestyle/Greco has always been that way) so, if that direction was given, this call was especially bad.

If that's the case then it's even worse. Any word on if Mongolia filed a formal protest?

This is what we have been instructed all year and reinforced at Fargo (which was a UWW upgrade clinic and tournament).  We have been told to give an "attention" prior to asking for a caution + 1 for fleeing the hold (usually occurs late in second period).  It puts the wrestler and coaches on notice that if they continue not engaging they can be hit.  I feel it has been pretty consistent that way in the USA this year.  We were also told that if we did not stop the match and give an attention prior to offering the penalty, then that would be a procedural error which could be protestable.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: red viking on August 22, 2016, 07:41:44 PM
Is that when they give the staller :30 to score or lose a point?

That seemed like one of the most ridiculous rules I've ever seen. I'm guessing it won't last too long. I watched quite a few matches over the weekend and every single time that happened I just saw the opponent of the guy who originally stalled, stall for the entire :30, making it impossible for the guy who originally stalled to score. Every single time (that I saw) he then got a point. Why waste the :30? In fact, it seemed like half the time the guy that was penalized barely even tried to score because he knew he couldn't do it when the guy is being that passive.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: a guest on August 22, 2016, 10:06:19 PM
Is that when they give the staller :30 to score or lose a point?

That seemed like one of the most ridiculous rules I've ever seen. I'm guessing it won't last too long. I watched quite a few matches over the weekend and every single time that happened I just saw the opponent of the guy who originally stalled, stall for the entire :30, making it impossible for the guy who originally stalled to score. Every single time (that I saw) he then got a point. Why waste the :30? In fact, it seemed like half the time the guy that was penalized barely even tried to score because he knew he couldn't do it when the guy is being that passive.

This is a good point.

If my opponent gets put on the shot clock for stalling, I'm thinking "Great, all the pressure to shoot is on him now.  So, I'm going to stall like hell for the remainder of the period since I know I'm not going to be called on it."

This, will counteract with the original intent.  Now, you'll have a guy unwilling to score and another guy unable to score.

It will turn into an even more of a stall fest.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: lkwdsteve on August 23, 2016, 07:49:38 AM
Is that when they give the staller :30 to score or lose a point?

That seemed like one of the most ridiculous rules I've ever seen. I'm guessing it won't last too long. I watched quite a few matches over the weekend and every single time that happened I just saw the opponent of the guy who originally stalled, stall for the entire :30, making it impossible for the guy who originally stalled to score. Every single time (that I saw) he then got a point. Why waste the :30? In fact, it seemed like half the time the guy that was penalized barely even tried to score because he knew he couldn't do it when the guy is being that passive.
No. Fleeing the hold is different than a shot clock violation.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: lkwdsteve on August 23, 2016, 08:13:57 AM
Is that when they give the staller :30 to score or lose a point?

That seemed like one of the most ridiculous rules I've ever seen. I'm guessing it won't last too long. I watched quite a few matches over the weekend and every single time that happened I just saw the opponent of the guy who originally stalled, stall for the entire :30, making it impossible for the guy who originally stalled to score. Every single time (that I saw) he then got a point. Why waste the :30? In fact, it seemed like half the time the guy that was penalized barely even tried to score because he knew he couldn't do it when the guy is being that passive.

This is a good point.

If my opponent gets put on the shot clock for stalling, I'm thinking "Great, all the pressure to shoot is on him now.  So, I'm going to stall like hell for the remainder of the period since I know I'm not going to be called on it."

This, will counteract with the original intent.  Now, you'll have a guy unwilling to score and another guy unable to score.

It will turn into an even more of a stall fest.
As was discussed with it's introduction the shot clock essentially took the place of the ball grab. I wasn't able to keep up with the scoring changes as I didn't know the place of cautions in tie breaking. In Cox's losing match he lost on tie breaks by failing to score when on the shot clock. Ironically, if he had stepped out instead of failing to score he would have been ahead on tie breaks by virtue of last score.
Cox testified that he didn't know he was losing on tiebreaks, but instead thought he was winning, having scored last. I wouldn't have known he was losing either except the announcer, bless him, who had trouble calling the action, at least knew the tiebreaking criteria and was on top of keeping the audience informed in that regard.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: lkwdsteve on August 23, 2016, 08:17:18 AM
This fan could use a primer on "warning", "caution", and "attention".
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: matref0 on August 23, 2016, 07:03:13 PM
This fan could use a primer on "warning", "caution", and "attention".

In short:

Warning:  verbal stimulation such as "Red, Action", "Blue Open"

Attention:  A formal warning putting a wrestler on notice that continuing such action will result in a penalty.  ie:  Blue in Par Terre close to the boundary:  "Blue, Place"  If blue continues to go out of bounds they will likely be hit for fleeing the mat.  In this match, an attention should have been given putting the wrestler on notice that his actions were fleeing the hold.  If he continued avoiding contact, or taunting, a penalty should follow.

Caution:  The penalty.  Can be from fleeing the mat, hold, illegal holds ect.  A caution is used and the followed up by points (1 or 2).  Cautions factor into the disqualification process and tiebreaker criteria.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: red viking on August 23, 2016, 07:10:56 PM
This fan could use a primer on "warning", "caution", and "attention".

In short:

Warning:  verbal stimulation such as "Red, Action", "Blue Open"

Attention:  A formal warning putting a wrestler on notice that continuing such action will result in a penalty.  ie:  Blue in Par Terre close to the boundary:  "Blue, Place"  If blue continues to go out of bounds they will likely be hit for fleeing the mat.  In this match, an attention should have been given putting the wrestler on notice that his actions were fleeing the hold.  If he continued avoiding contact, or taunting, a penalty should follow.

Caution:  The penalty.  Can be from fleeing the mat, hold, illegal holds ect.  A caution is used and the followed up by points (1 or 2).  Cautions factor into the disqualification process and tiebreaker criteria.

So are you saying he should have been given an "attention" before penalizing him, even when it is that blatant?
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: OkieSpladle on August 23, 2016, 07:42:40 PM
This fan could use a primer on "warning", "caution", and "attention".

In short:

Warning:  verbal stimulation such as "Red, Action", "Blue Open"

Attention:  A formal warning putting a wrestler on notice that continuing such action will result in a penalty.  ie:  Blue in Par Terre close to the boundary:  "Blue, Place"  If blue continues to go out of bounds they will likely be hit for fleeing the mat.  In this match, an attention should have been given putting the wrestler on notice that his actions were fleeing the hold.  If he continued avoiding contact, or taunting, a penalty should follow.

Caution:  The penalty.  Can be from fleeing the mat, hold, illegal holds ect.  A caution is used and the followed up by points (1 or 2).  Cautions factor into the disqualification process and tiebreaker criteria.

So are you saying he should have been given an "attention" before penalizing him, even when it is that blatant?

That is the direction from UWW, yes.
Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: RYou on August 24, 2016, 09:05:15 AM
In case you had not noticed, the Mongolian congratulated the Uzbeki several times after the bout, though he refused the official hand raising in protest of the penalty point. 

Here another peek.  Unfortunately you'll have to sit through an NBC commercial.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/mongolian-coaches-protest-loss-removing-shirts-pants?cid=eref:nbcnews:video

Title: Re: Mongolian Protest
Post by: ViseGrip on August 24, 2016, 08:39:43 PM
In case you had not noticed, the Mongolian congratulated the Uzbeki several times after the bout, though he refused the official hand raising in protest of the penalty point. 

Here another peek.  Unfortunately you'll have to sit through an NBC commercial.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/mongolian-coaches-protest-loss-removing-shirts-pants?cid=eref:nbcnews:video

EPIC!