The Open Mat Forum

Wrestling => Wrestlingref - Officiating => Topic started by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 26, 2020, 10:27:20 PM

Title: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 26, 2020, 10:27:20 PM
Wrestler A reports to the table without his mouthguard.

Ref starts injury timeout and awards 1 point to wrestler B as he grabs his mouthguard.

Great match....and at the end of regulation, the score is at 4-4.

OT --- no points.

Flip the disc.

Wrestler B takes down. Wrestler B escapes and ends the 1st 30 second 2OT at 5-4 in the lead.

Wrestler A takes down. Wrestler A escapes at the buzzer, and is awarded 1 point and ties the match at 5-5. However, Wrestler A takes an injury timeout as he banged his elbow hard on the mat while standing up during the flurry.

UTB

Wrestler B scored first and elects to take down.

Wrestler A is riding tough , has both legs in....less than 10 seconds left......less than 5 seconds...Wrestler B signals for his first injury time-out, pointing to his knee. Ref stops the action with 2 seconds left. Trainer comes out, he uses a minute of the time, and he looks to be fine and is ready to continue.

What happens now?
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: red viking on January 27, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
Wrestler A took 2 injury timeouts so give Wrestler B his choice of position before continuing. Only 2 seconds left so if B is smart he'll take top and ride A out for 2 seconds to win the match.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 27, 2020, 02:37:39 PM
Exactly......what if your gut is telling you this was well-orchestrated and you're 99.9% sure there was no injury......Do you dare hit him with a USC to end the match?!?!?! Or just think to yourself, well played....
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: red viking on January 27, 2020, 03:30:57 PM
Exactly......what if your gut is telling you this was well-orchestrated and you're 99.9% sure there was no injury......Do you dare hit him with a USC to end the match?!?!?! Or just think to yourself, well played....

If he says he is injured I give the injury TO, regardless of whether I believe him or not. No USC. If I suspect he was faking it I report it to the state association and athletic director.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: RYou on January 27, 2020, 10:02:02 PM
The 2nd injury time out rules states the opposing wrestler will be given choice of position upon the restart after the 2nd timeout.

Since wrestler A's  2nd IT occurred at the end of the TB, Wrestler B should have been given the choice to start the UTB not because he scored first, but because in this example, the 2nd IT rule takes precedence over UTB rule for the restart choice,

The 2nd IT has been applied at the restart, so A will continue to take the offensive position at the restart.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: red viking on January 28, 2020, 08:41:11 AM
The 2nd injury time out rules states the opposing wrestler will be given choice of position upon the restart after the 2nd timeout.

Since wrestler A's  2nd IT occurred at the end of the TB, Wrestler B should have been given the choice to start the UTB not because he scored first, but because in this example, the 2nd IT rule takes precedence over UTB rule for the restart choice,

The 2nd IT has been applied at the restart, so A will continue to take the offensive position at the restart.

Wrestler B already had the choice of position for the UTB so he not only gets that but then an extra choice upon the first re-start. If A had scored first then B would have still gotten choice but then no extra choice at the re-start. He gets an extra choice because of the 2nd injury timeout.

Just like if a wrestler gets their 2nd injury timeout at the end of the 1-minute sudden victory period. The other wrestler gets choice for both of the next :30 periods instead of just one of them.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 28, 2020, 09:01:51 AM
I agree with Red Viking. Had he taken the injury timeout prior to the end of the 2nd 30-sec OT, then the choice would be given to him for those last few seconds. You just can't take away that choice because  it's the UTB. Wrestler gets choice because of first point scored and then choice at the next restart which happened to be an injury timeout he personally took near the end of the UTB.

This was purely a hypothetical situation that I came up with. I think it's a billion to one situation to happen, but good for discussion.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: red viking on January 28, 2020, 09:12:39 AM
I don't have it with me but I know the rulebook explicitely tells you what to do in this situaion. I'm going from memory here but it makes sense. From what I recall, there is always an extra choice for the other wrestler when a wrestler takes a 2nd injury TO.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: RYou on January 28, 2020, 06:34:12 PM
Here's a reference Kansas put together.  Go to g. It makes no reference to who scored first, the IT penalty is immediately enforced.  Obviousy, there could be variations in teh interpretation between states.though there shouldn't be.

https://khsaa.org/wrestling/khsaainjurytimeoutchecklist.pdf

g.If the second injury time-out occurs at the conclusion of the second 30-second tiebreaker period, the opponent shall have the choice of top or bottom position at the start of the ultimate tiebreaker period.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: red viking on January 29, 2020, 10:05:15 AM
Here's a reference Kansas put together.  Go to g. It makes no reference to who scored first, the IT penalty is immediately enforced.  Obviousy, there could be variations in teh interpretation between states.though there shouldn't be.

https://khsaa.org/wrestling/khsaainjurytimeoutchecklist.pdf

g.If the second injury time-out occurs at the conclusion of the second 30-second tiebreaker period, the opponent shall have the choice of top or bottom position at the start of the ultimate tiebreaker period.

I looked in the rulebook this morning and you are correct. Don't tell anybody.

It's a little counterintuitative because this is the only situation where there wouldn't be an extra choice given after a 2nd injury TO. In all other situations the other wrestler is getting an extra choice. Even if it occurs between the two other :30 periods. Maybe they wanted to avoid the exact situation described above.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 29, 2020, 11:33:53 AM
This is very interesting to say the least...I learned something today.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: RYou on January 29, 2020, 03:38:00 PM
I was surprised to find that guidance...someone thought about it.

The same holds true if an unsportsmanlike penalty is awarded.  Choice is given to the opponent regardless of which wrestler scored first.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 30, 2020, 11:27:25 AM
I'm glad we had this discussion...

so lets clarify.......

Wrestler A has an unsportsmanlike conduct call
Wrestler B just used his 2nd injury timeout at the conclusion of the 2nd OT (2nd 30 sec OT)

What takes precedence? Who gets choice in UTB?
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: RYou on January 30, 2020, 12:50:19 PM
Since a team point is not deducted for unsportsmanlike during a bout, you could say the 2 penalties offset each other, similarly to 2 football penalties*.   In that case you revert to the original rule, first wrestler to score in the bout has choice. 

However, an unsportsmanlike penalty call is weighed heavily when determining the team winner in tie match scores, so you could deem the unsportsmanlike penalty as being the more severe of the two, and award choice to the wrestler without the unsportsmanlike call.  I think you would get more argument from a coach if you go that route in the absence of some clear direction from third source (other than me  :D ) as a reference.The unsportsmanlike call warrants additional emphasis beyond a bout point, but who am I to enforce it that way in the absence authoritative direction. 

If I was a rule interpreter preparing a checklist like the one from Kansas, I would add a line that clearly states, in the event of A have 2 timeouts and B an Unsportsmanlike penalty, at the end of UTB choice goes to the wrestler no having the sportsmanlike penalty. 

My reasoning - unsportsmanlike is an intentional infraction where as you have to assume the 2 injury timeouts were legitimate needs and not intended by the wrestler.

*Even in situations where a basic penalty - offensive holding- and a severe penalty - defensive roughing the passer - negate each other and the down is replayed.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 30, 2020, 03:03:31 PM
I like your logic.....USC is pretty severe. I just hope to not be put in this situation without a clear cut answer.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: red viking on January 31, 2020, 09:35:55 AM
I bet this has never happened. If it did, I would offset them. You can't go wrong by doing that. You can go wrong the other way though.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: RYou on January 31, 2020, 03:22:09 PM
You know when this situation will arise, finals of a team state championship with the title on the line in the last bout to determine the champ, with no other referees around to weigh in on the decision.  At in the individual state championship finals there are other around for a rule interpretation.
Title: Re: UTB Scenario.....
Post by: New2TheGameNYRef on January 31, 2020, 04:13:27 PM
Therefore, it would only make sense to bring the head coaches to the center of the circle for an epic 1 throw Rock Paper Scissors showdown to see whose wrestler gets choice!