The Open Mat Forum

Miscellaneous => Off-Topic => Topic started by: RYou on June 24, 2021, 08:56:12 AM

Title: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on June 24, 2021, 08:56:12 AM
I thought this only happened in China

Look at the cars parked bottom left, they are tilted. This has all of the earmarks of sink hole erupting under the building.

(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/06/1862/1048/collapse-4-.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on June 24, 2021, 11:56:51 AM
This is terrible.  Last count was 1 dead, but that is sure to rise.

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on June 27, 2021, 04:53:25 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on June 27, 2021, 07:35:13 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on June 27, 2021, 10:00:58 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on June 28, 2021, 08:05:46 PM
Well its looking to be quite the reverse.  Insufficient water drainage from the parking lot may be a contributing factor.  The condo association had an engineering study conducted 3 years which identified $9 million in needed repairs.  That was one of the prioritized issues.  The Association took a $15 million loan to be paid out of the owners pockets, financed by HOA fee increases. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/collapsed-florida-building-residents-told-it-was-safe-despite-major-n1272507

Quote from: NBC News Services June 28 2021

Morabito recommended that concrete slabs, which were “showing distress” by the entrance and pool deck, “be removed and replaced in their entirety.” He said the concrete deterioration should "be repaired in a timely fashion."

That pool was swallowed into a massive sinkhole shortly before the collapse, now-missing resident Cassondra “Cassie” Billedeau-Stratton told her husband on the phone before her line went dead.



Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on June 29, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
Not looking good. 

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on June 29, 2021, 11:51:15 PM
A lot of the Florida property insurance policies have subsidence exclusions intended to avoid coverage for sinkhole damage.  The engineering report looks like it will hinder owner recoveries due to the apparent excessive wear and tear corrosion.  It sure looks like that building will get razed and the owners will be relegated to the land value.  As a beachfront property that could be worth a bundle but not likely equal to what a resident recently paid for a unit.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on June 30, 2021, 09:52:22 AM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on June 30, 2021, 09:54:24 AM
...and it contributes to sinkholes.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on June 30, 2021, 02:05:42 PM
Good thing the oceans have never done that before. 

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: Bob H. on June 30, 2021, 04:08:05 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101

It shouldn't have been an issue if they used the proper concrete.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: Bob H. on June 30, 2021, 04:11:15 PM
...and it contributes to sinkholes.

Nope, unless you mean that climate change causes more droughts followed by heavy rainfall.

I'd have to check (and I'm too lazy to right now), but I don't think Miami-Dade County is in a Karst area. 
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on June 30, 2021, 04:59:13 PM
...and it contributes to sinkholes.

Nope, unless you mean that climate change causes more droughts followed by heavy rainfall.

I'd have to check (and I'm too lazy to right now), but I don't think Miami-Dade County is in a Karst area.

"Karstness" comes in degrees. It isn't as if you are either karst or not. There is some subjectivity to it. As long as you have limestone underlying you there is a chance for sinkholes. Miami definitely isn't a hotspot for sinkholes but they can happen there and I thought I heard something about that. At least some people have brought that forth as a potential contributing factor. I agree that the main issue was probably the saltwater (and rising sea levels definitely exacerbates) damaging the concrete and rebar.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on June 30, 2021, 10:18:58 PM
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on June 30, 2021, 10:35:27 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 01, 2021, 01:05:03 PM
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 01, 2021, 04:20:01 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 01, 2021, 04:22:12 PM
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 01, 2021, 05:04:26 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal

See RYou's comment

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 01, 2021, 05:06:37 PM
Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.

This is exactly the scenario my Dad was in.  Fixed income, couldn't afford etc.  I can't remember how much the assessment was.  The maker of the siding was already out of business and sued out of their mind so there was no going there for any money.  And the job needed to get done.  Like I said, they found a lot of damage under the siding. 

It sounds to me like this is what happened in this case.

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 01, 2021, 05:07:57 PM
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.

I totally agree.  I'm in one and about to get out.  Prime example is the roof on these places have maxed out the life expectancy.  That's a capital expense that should have been accrued over 30 years, but it wasn't.  They've tried to make up that under funding over 5 years.  They added a $50 / month assessment year 3 I was here and bumped it another $50 in year 5.  This year they tagged us with a $1200 special assessment and another will likely be assessed next July.  So the residents of the past 5 years have to make up what the former residents should have been paying over the prior 25.  I'm out July 13.  I refuse to pay $500/ month in an HOA fee for crappy maintenance, landscaping and snow removal.  We were able to boot out the association manager of 20 years for misguided financial advice.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 01, 2021, 05:14:53 PM
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.

I totally agree.  I'm in one and about to get out.  Prime example is the roof on these places have maxed out the life expectancy.  That's a capital expense that should have been accrued over 30 years, but it wasn't.  They've tried to make up that under funding over 5 years.  They added a $50 / month assessment year 3 I was here and bumped it another $50 in year 5.  This year they tagged us with a $1200 special assessment and another will likely be assessed next July.  So the residents of the past 5 years have to make up what the former residents should have been paying over the prior 25.  I'm out July 13.  I refuse to pay $500/ month in an HOA fee for crappy maintenance, landscaping and snow removal.  We were able to boot out the association manager of 20 years for misguided financial advice.

And that is the other issue for sure.  The reserves have to be kept proper and in your case it looks like that didn't happen.   

We live in an HOA.  Dues are $0.3k / year  (for all you folks not into conversions, that's $300/year.  And they are trying to build up the reserve account because of just what you were saying.  In fact they took a resident to court for egregious violations and asked for and got a special assessment to pay for the lawyers.  I wasn't too happy about that but they have been real obstinate.  He was a former board member and knows better than to do this or litigate this.  He is sure to lose.  And have to pay lawyer fees.  And he is a lawyer for crying out loud. 

mspart

mspart

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on July 01, 2021, 10:12:35 PM
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal
I don't subscribe to "Libtard Logic 101".
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 02, 2021, 06:45:01 AM

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 02, 2021, 07:41:17 AM

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 02, 2021, 08:20:22 AM

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.

Not
That's like telling me climate change caused my bicycle to rust because I left it outside. 
Sea salt and moisture have been rusting out steel since it was first used in construction along coastal cities. But being from the midwest, you wouldn't know about that.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 02, 2021, 10:54:32 AM

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.

Not
That's like telling me climate change caused my bicycle to rust because I left it outside. 
Sea salt and moisture have been rusting out steel since it was first used in construction along coastal cities. But being from the midwest, you wouldn't know about that.

It's common sense. Higher sea levels means more saltwater comes into contact with the concrete. It corrodes more quickly. Now, how much more quickly is open to debate but it still did without any doubt whatsoever.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 02, 2021, 12:00:47 PM

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.

Not
That's like telling me climate change caused my bicycle to rust because I left it outside. 
Sea salt and moisture have been rusting out steel since it was first used in construction along coastal cities. But being from the midwest, you wouldn't know about that.

It's common sense. Higher sea levels means more saltwater comes into contact with the concrete. It corrodes more quickly. Now, how much more quickly is open to debate but it still did without any doubt whatsoever.

But that is not what happened.  Your reading comprehension is fairly lacking here unless you can provide a report that says the pilings were damaged to due sea water incursion.  I know that's what you want to have had been, but that's not what the report says.  Time to give it up. 

mspart
mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 02, 2021, 12:25:05 PM
Concrete & rebar were both damaged from saltwater intrusion. Read the report. It's in there - black and white!!!!
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 02, 2021, 01:02:56 PM
Please show me.  I can't find any mention of saltwater intrusion.  I do see salty air, but that is expected in a seaside location.  What I do see is the following:

https://apnews.com/article/fl-state-wire-florida-2a241993956ea842262e593812ad3ada

Some of the damage to the concrete in the parking garage was minor, while other columns had exposed and deteriorating rebar. It also noted that many of the building’s previous attempts to fix the columns and other damage with epoxy were marred by poor workmanship and were failing.

Beneath the pool deck “where the slab had been epoxy-injected, new cracks were radiating from the originally repaired cracks,” the report said.  The report said the waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.  “The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replaced the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,” the report said.

Nowhere in the AP report did they cite the Morabito report as saying rising sea levels or saltwater incursion. 

I also read the Morabito report here https://www.wfla.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/71/2021/06/8777-collins-ave-structural-field-survey-report.pdf

No mention of your saltwater theory.  If it is in there in black and white I missed it.  Show me.

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 02, 2021, 03:14:19 PM
WOW! You must be purposely trying to ignore it. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of articles out there about this.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/miami-condo-collapse-highlights-urgent-need-to-adapt-to-rising-seas

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063736045

https://www.curbed.com/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-surfside-reasons.html

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: mspart on July 02, 2021, 05:08:55 PM
Concrete & rebar were both damaged from saltwater intrusion. Read the report. It's in there - black and white!!!!

Let's go back to what you said,.   You did not talk about a bunch of articles.  You were very specific to the report.  See above.   And I did not find it in black and white (even though it might be racist to say that) in the report put out by Morabito. 

To your articles:

1.  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/miami-condo-collapse-highlights-urgent-need-to-adapt-to-rising-seas
What!!!  You must have just read the headline.  Here is the whole headline:

Miami condo collapse highlights urgent need to adapt to rising seas

Though climate change-related factors were probably not behind the partial collapse of the Florida beachside building, other properties are vulnerable to rising seas.

2.  https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063736045   -   Apparently you did not read the very first paragraph. 

Did climate change play a role in the deadly collapse of a Miami-area condominium last week?  Experts say it's too soon to tell. At least one factor has come up as a possibility — the corrosive impact of rising sea levels — but other variables have little to do with global warming.

3.  https://www.curbed.com/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-surfside-reasons.html   -   Simply a recitation of theories that might have been the cause.   Rising sea levels is way down on the list.

4.  https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html  -  Doesn't even mention rising sea levels or global warming.

5.  https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html   -   Below is the only mention of saltwater.

CBS4’s Jim DeFede interviewed William Espinosa, a Champlain maintenance manager from the late 1990s, who said ocean saltwater would make its way into the underground garage — so much that “pumps never could keep up with it.”
However, he cautioned against rushing to conclude that all beams in the building showed similar levels of damage to those exposed to chemicals from the pool. The 2018 report that documented “severe” structural damage to concrete in the garage under the pool deck did not include photos of anything nearly as alarming as what the pool contractor documented, Ehsani said


RV - Out of the 5 links you provided, only one mentions saltwater in the story, the last one.  If there are literally hundreds if not thousands of articles out there, why did you pick these sorry articles?  So this proves you wronger than you were proved before.  At least you tried to put something together so there is credit for that.  Actually having read the articles you posted would have given you a better grade.  Or did you not expect anyone to look at these?  Wrong again.   But saying that mention of saltwater was in the report (which it did not) and then saying it is in these articles (which it is not with one exception) proves you don't know what you are talking about.  It appears from the report and these articles that the building was poorly planned and built.  It was a disaster waiting to happen.  More than rising oceans, it has  more to do with  human error in planning and execution. 

mspart
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 02, 2021, 08:03:34 PM
Concrete & rebar were both damaged from saltwater intrusion. Read the report. It's in there - black and white!!!!

You're bullshitting because it's not in the report.  Not even mentioned.

Quote from: Morabito Consultants Report
.......waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.

The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replaced the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,......

.......damage to the concrete in the parking garage ...... minor, while
.......other columns ......exposed and deteriorating rebar.
...... many of the building’s previous attempts to fix the columns and other damage with epoxy were marred by poor workmanship and are failing.


So we have
...pool structure waterproofing that failed.....which means it was accessible.
...improperly installed....which means it was accessible
...exposed columns....which means they were observed...accessible
...Previous attempts to fix problems....poor workmanship...which means they were accessible

Typical lib spouting opinion for a desired outcome and ignoring science and truth.

Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on July 02, 2021, 09:36:37 PM
WOW! You must be purposely trying to ignore it. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of articles out there about this.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/miami-condo-collapse-highlights-urgent-need-to-adapt-to-rising-seas

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063736045

https://www.curbed.com/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-surfside-reasons.html

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html
I clicked on your first link and found that it did not support your claim contrary to your wishful thinking.  Here it is -

Though climate change-related factors were probably not behind the partial collapse of the Florida beachside building, other properties are vulnerable to rising seas.

BYLAURA PARKER
PUBLISHED JULY 2, 2021
• 7 MIN READ

The collapse of the condominium building in Surfside, Florida, may force what some say is a long overdue conversation about the hard realities of climate change that will transform one of the nation’s most vulnerable regions.

To be sure, no evidence has emerged so far to connect climate change to the middle-of-the-night collapse of the Champlain Towers on June 24, which buried residents in the rubble. Sea level has risen eight inches in South Florida since 1981, when the 12-story condo was built—not enough to be responsible for its collapse, says Hal Wanless, a University of Miami
geologist and South Florida’s preeminent voice on sea-level rise.

No need to check the others out when your very first is a miserable FAIL.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 02, 2021, 09:41:46 PM
Sea level rise not enough to be the primary reason but no doubt the collapse occurred sooner than it would have otherwise as a result. Its basic logic. Higher sea levels= more salt and more water = more corrosion. Its really very basic logic
 
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: red viking on July 02, 2021, 09:44:50 PM
I can't access the 1st article anymore wo logging in. I'm sure u are cherry picking. From the 2nd one though:

While it's still unclear what caused the damage, experts have noted that structures built in salty coastal climates are vulnerable to corrosion. Concrete is a porous substance, which makes it possible for salt water to seep inside. When that happens, salt can corrode the steel rebar used to reinforce concrete structures.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on July 02, 2021, 09:47:08 PM
Sea level rise not enough to be the primary reason but no doubt the collapse occurred sooner than it would have otherwise as a result. Its basic logic. Higher sea levels= more salt and more water = more corrosion. Its really very basic logic
But you keep failing to support your claim.  Ironic that on another thread you claim that Rush specialized in "disinformation".  You seem to be the unchallenged king.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: Bob H. on July 03, 2021, 12:47:58 AM
Sea level rise not enough to be the primary reason but no doubt the collapse occurred sooner than it would have otherwise as a result. Its basic logic. Higher sea levels= more salt and more water = more corrosion. Its really very basic logic

Only if the rise in sea levels  (which is probably only a couple of inches) was enough to allow the seawater to flow into places it otherwise wouldn't (for example, the parking garage).  Otherwise, a couple inches of additional exposure would have little to no impact. 

I would also be interested in the materials used in the construction.  Some concrete formulations are much better suited for saltwater environments.  Ditto for the rebar, which may be coated to resist corrosion (although that also brings its own set of problems).  Then there is the question of concrete coverage over the rebar.  The bar is obviously more prone to corrosion if it is placed too near the concrete surface.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 03, 2021, 07:40:36 AM

Only if the rise in sea levels  (which is probably only a couple of inches) was enough to allow the seawater to flow into places it otherwise wouldn't (for example, the parking garage).  Otherwise, a couple inches of additional exposure would have little to no impact. 


Over a period of 40 years, seawater seepage would have been the result of tropical storm tidal action versus any measurable impact from climate.  The report criticized the drainage from the ground level parking deck. 

The speculariton now is that the city building authority will declare the building uninhabitable and unrepairable and order it razed....financial loss decision by a municipal authority is another common exclusion in a property insurance policy.  It's just one more, documentable reason for insurers to deny a claim for loss.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: lkwdsteve on July 04, 2021, 07:09:45 PM
Another reason for the collapse may have been the recent construction of another high rise too close to it.

I don't know about climate change, but critical theory teaches us that racism may have played a factor.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: Bob H. on July 05, 2021, 12:13:52 AM
Hmmm.  Wasn't the building white?    :o

The remaining building was demolished with explosives today.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 05, 2021, 01:05:19 PM
Well, either the owners are out a tidy sum, or they will be getting a brand spanking new townhouse.  Depending on current pricing for that location, if the current owners can retain rights, and they should be able to, and the opt for a high end luxury building, they may be able to the rights for a tidy profit upon completion.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: ctc on July 05, 2021, 03:51:11 PM
Well, either the owners are out a tidy sum, or they will be getting a brand spanking new townhouse.  Depending on current pricing for that location, if the current owners can retain rights, and they should be able to, and the opt for a high end luxury building, they may be able to the rights for a tidy profit upon completion.
Won't lawsuits come into play?
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 05, 2021, 08:38:59 PM
Well, either the owners are out a tidy sum, or they will be getting a brand spanking new townhouse.  Depending on current pricing for that location, if the current owners can retain rights, and they should be able to, and the opt for a high end luxury building, they may be able to the rights for a tidy profit upon completion.
Won't lawsuits come into play?

No question about it.  150 deceased, never mind the survivor/owners.....there wont be enough insurance to go around.

Owners Association will be the first target, but there could be a liability waiver between the owners and the association.
If there was a management company, they'll be  target.
Construction manager and contractors, not likely. since it was 40 years old and the issue was degradation over time.
Architect design firm....limited insurance, no assets, if it still exists.  Typically these are claims made policies and if there was no continuation of insurance from day 1, a claim today will be excluded.
Maintenance contractors can be a target
Engineer that did the inspection, can be a target, "wasn't strenuous enough with its warning, though such firms tend to carry little insurance and these businesses have no assets.
Title: Re: Miami Condo Collapse
Post by: RYou on July 05, 2021, 08:40:32 PM
WOW! You must be purposely trying to ignore it. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of articles out there about this.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/miami-condo-collapse-highlights-urgent-need-to-adapt-to-rising-seas

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063736045

https://www.curbed.com/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-surfside-reasons.html

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

Opinion and liberal wants without fact or based in science