Author Topic: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.  (Read 4413 times)

Offline DiMaria

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Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« on: February 19, 2013, 01:54:50 PM »
I got this from the California forum.
I was at a league tournament and section qualifier this past weekend and something happened that bothered me. 2 wrestlers from a team were denied the chance to wrestle and help their team in the league race and qualify for sections. They both failed groom check because of ringworm. They both had been treated >72 hours and both had the proper form and physician ok to wrestle. 1 referee said they were ok to wrestle but then it was brought to the attention of the head official. He looked at the wrestlers and the physician form and said neither could wrestle. One of the kids was a senior and had 1 spot on his forehead. This effectively ended his career. The other a junior and had 1 spot on his arm. Both would have probably qualified for sections but in the least would have helped their team in the league race.

What is the point of having a professional medical opinion and form only to be overruled by a non-medical person? The team was told they could not protest or seek a medical opinion because a physician had not been assigned to the tournament.
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Offline AKIN

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 11:14:38 PM »
If they had a current appropriate NFHS form signed by an appropriate health care professional, then they should have been able to wrestle. The head official can not overrule it. The rule reads:

Rule 4.2.4

"If a designated, on site meet appropriate health care professional is present, he/she may overrule the diagnosis of the appropriate health care professional signing the medical release form for a wrestler to  participate or not to participate with a particualr skin condition."

There is nothing in the rule book that gives the official the ability to overrule a valid form. I would say this official overstepped his authority.
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Offline matref0

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 11:22:12 AM »
I'd be hesitant to overrule a proper note; however, I have before and would have the full support of our state association because it is normally an exception to the rule.  Rule 3-1-2 can apply in certain situations.

In instances in which I have over ruled a note:

-When the dates are scratched out and new ones (in different color of pen) are noticed.
-I've seen notes that clear someone to wrestle when they haven't been treated long enough per the form's guidelines.
-I've seen notes in which they have a lesion indicated on the form but there are other ones that aren't indicated.
-Sometimes a wrestler can be treated and the medicine isn't working and still contagious.  I've seen stuff that was treated and cleared flair up after the clear date.  I've seen stuff raised and oozing and the wrestler has a note.  Sorry, but he isn't competing.
-I've seen notes that were complete frauds.  i.e.  Doctor doesn't exist, doctor never seen the kid, note is for someone with a different name.

Again,  over-riding a Dr's note would be the exception not the norm.  I'm not a Dr. and don't pretend to be one, but I think there are cases in which an official has to rely on some common sense, use good judgment (in consult with trainers and other officials)  and react to unforeseen circumstances not specifically covered in the rules. 

Offline AKIN

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 01:27:45 AM »
What he said, too.  ;D
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Offline red viking

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 08:14:38 AM »
Most recently, I had a note that said the wrestler can compete if he keeps the lesion covered. That won't work either.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline Tony Tab

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 10:07:13 AM »
Akin,  you are so wrong.  The official is responsible for EVERYTHING !!  A few years ago, at a NJ regional tournament I had to over rule a "doctor's note".  The doctor diagnosed the wrestler with a non contagious skin disorder,  that I recognized as an active Herpes infection. This was probably the hardest call I have ever made. The following day the boy returned with an apology from the doctor for his misdiagnosis, and that  it was in fact, herpes.

The problem is that too many doctors have no idea what they are looking at, how to complete the form,  and do not understand the consequences of permitting a boy to wrestle. Many of the forms I receive are contradictory to the rules regarding dates, minimal treatment time, and covering.  My personal thought is that only a dermatologist should be allowed to complete the. skin form. Many of these wrestlers are still using a pediatrician. You would not go to a pediatrician for a dislocated shoulder !!! 

I blame the coach.  It is the coach's responsibility to read the form, after it is completed, and be sure that it meets all the requirements of the NFHS., or state association. 

Officials, and especially those that conduct weigh ins, should....no must !!, know what each of the common skin diseases look like and to know if they are active or not. And then be willing to go the distance to protect the wrestlers.
 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 10:24:49 AM by Tony Tab »

Offline vaisforlovers

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 11:51:40 PM »
I know it's annoying and contagious, but geez it's just friggin ringworm..Such a silly thing to end a guys season with.

Especially considering kids with contagious stuff like the flu/mono and other things wrestle and there's no form needed for that.
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Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 10:42:11 PM »
Akin,  you are so wrong.  The official is responsible for EVERYTHING !!  A few years ago, at a NJ regional tournament I had to over rule a "doctor's note".  The doctor diagnosed the wrestler with a non contagious skin disorder,  that I recognized as an active Herpes infection. This was probably the hardest call I have ever made. The following day the boy returned with an apology from the doctor for his misdiagnosis, and that  it was in fact, herpes.

The official must follow the rules.

The example you give is interesting, because it's dramatic.  Here's anther case.  Coaches aren't allowed to run out onto the mat and stop the action.  Now, it happens every now and then that a coach sees a bad thing about to happen, or which has happened, and the referee does not.  So, let's say that a wrestler's elbow is dislocated in the process of being put to his back.  The referee is looking for the pin, and is oblivious to the problem (and the screaming).  So a coach runs out on the mat, creates a disturbance, and obliges the referee to stop the action.  (I have actually seen this exact situation, by the way.)

I think most of us would say that the coach was right to act.  Does this mean coaches have the right to run out on the mat, and stop action?  Absolutely not.  It simply means that extenuating circumstances exist, in which following the rules would violate some higher ethical imperative.

Officials, and especially those that conduct weigh ins, should....no must !!, know what each of the common skin diseases look like and to know if they are active or not. And then be willing to go the distance to protect the wrestlers.

What you appear to be saying, here, is that the officials don't have to follow the rules at all.

It's one thing to see an outbreak of a life-long, incurable disease (albeit a mild one, which amounts to an occasional inconvenience), and decide to take extraordinary action to prevent its spread.  It's another to overstep your authority when the worst potential consequence of failing to act is a blemish which can be remedied quickly with a bit of cream.

Offline matref0

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 01:15:57 PM »
I know it's annoying and contagious, but geez it's just friggin ringworm..Such a silly thing to end a guys season with.

Especially considering kids with contagious stuff like the flu/mono and other things wrestle and there's no form needed for that.

Until something like this occurs:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/preps/wrestle/2007-01-30-minnesota-wrestling_x.htm


Offline red viking

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 09:21:43 PM »
In Wisconsin the referee can overrule the physician that wrote the note:

From the Wisconsin Adaptations to NFHS Rules:
http://www.wiaawi.org/Sports/Wrestling/RulesRegulations.aspx

I. The on-mat official for varsity competition shall make the final determination relative to skin condition concerns for varsity matches. The on-mat official for sub-varsity competition shall make the final determination relative to skin condition concerns for sub-varsity matches.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 04:12:37 PM »
I know it's annoying and contagious, but geez it's just friggin ringworm..Such a silly thing to end a guys season with.

Especially considering kids with contagious stuff like the flu/mono and other things wrestle and there's no form needed for that.

Until something like this occurs:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/preps/wrestle/2007-01-30-minnesota-wrestling_x.htm
From the article...
Quote
Dr. Henry Balfour, a national expert on herpes who works in the department of virology at the University of Minnesota, said wrestlers are at a higher risk for this sort of infection than other people because of the nature of the sport.

"Usually you have to have damage to the skin," he said. "If there is a break in the skin, ... then the virus could take and cause a skin infection."

Balfour said the virus is not fatal but is a detrimental nuisance that can recur.

Such outbreaks are common in the wrestling world, frequently occurring at summer camps, he said.

According to this maybe we should be spraying the source of the bleed as well as the mat. (With a different spray naturally... if one exists for herpes which is may not)
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Offline AKIN

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 10:26:45 PM »
In Wisconsin the referee can overrule the physician that wrote the note:

From the Wisconsin Adaptations to NFHS Rules:
http://www.wiaawi.org/Sports/Wrestling/RulesRegulations.aspx

I. The on-mat official for varsity competition shall make the final determination relative to skin condition concerns for varsity matches. The on-mat official for sub-varsity competition shall make the final determination relative to skin condition concerns for sub-varsity matches.

Different states are able to make their own adaptations to the NFHS. In Texas, we do not have any extra interpretations when it comes to skin issues. The rules are clear on what is needed from a wrestler that has had a skin issue. That being said, if a kid comes to weigh-ins with what looks to be a fresh skin issue, the head official has the option to allow the "designated on-site health care professional" rule on whether the wrestler will be allowed to compete or not.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 10:30:17 PM by AKIN »
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Offline ban basketball

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Re: Akin can you please answer this? Thanks.
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 09:15:35 PM »
Akin,  you are so wrong.  The official is responsible for EVERYTHING !!  A few years ago, at a NJ regional tournament I had to over rule a "doctor's note".  The doctor diagnosed the wrestler with a non contagious skin disorder,  that I recognized as an active Herpes infection. This was probably the hardest call I have ever made. The following day the boy returned with an apology from the doctor for his misdiagnosis, and that  it was in fact, herpes.

 Coaches aren't allowed to run out onto the mat and stop the action. 

J Robinson and half of the Minnesota coaching staff did it a few years back in the UNI during the national duals.  One of their wrestlers was getting choked out (even turning blue) the ref was looking for the fall, and the ran out to alert the ref to stop the hold.

Nothing happened to any of those coaches.
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