Author Topic: I'm just sayin'  (Read 18308 times)

Offline Jointdoc55

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I'm just sayin'
« on: August 01, 2013, 09:50:41 am »
God exists. He created the universe. This I believe. I do not demand that you believe it and I do not accept your insistence that I reject it. My unwillingness to try to prove it to you does not make it any less true. I will never prove it to your satisfaction, and I'm OK with that.

Offline SVV

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 10:05:10 am »
I'm just respondin'.

God exists. (More than likely he doesn't) He created the universe. (More than likely he didn't) This I believe. (That you do) I do not demand that you believe it and I do not accept your insistence that I reject it. (Fair enough) My unwillingness to try to prove it to you does not make it any less true. (To make a claim, evidence would help support it) I will never prove it to your satisfaction (because you cannot), and I'm OK with that (and we can still be friends).

Offline Jointdoc55

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 11:37:18 am »
That we can, brother.

Usually the "problem", if you will, of proof revolves around our definition of proof. For example, many God-believers use 'the beauty of nature' as "proof" of God. I would view it as evidence that a "creator" exists, but not "proof" in the standard scientific way we define proof. Call it "circumstancial" proof, if you wish. Bottom line: you are correct. I cannot prove it scientifically. For this reason, I don't try to "prove it".  There are several aspects of "belief" that motivate the "believer" to try to prove God's existance to those who do not "believe".  It is important for me to interject here that I certainly have no illusion that I speak for all 'people of faith'. Many people of faith also believe that those who do not "believe" are either missing out on something or, worse, will suffer some ill fate upon death. This motivates some to share their belief with others. Interestingly, it seems to me that such belief (e.g. "hell", or some similarly bad outcome following death for non-believers) would motivate believers to share more than it appears to do. Perhaps that hesitation is a fear of ridicule by non-believers, or perhaps it's a weakness of resolve; it is certainly my observation. Having said all of this, I think you missed an opportunity responding to my post. You could have made a stronger argument by responding this way to my statement, "My unwillingness to try to prove it to you does not make it any less true". (or any less false)

« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 11:39:08 am by Jointdoc55 »

Offline SVV

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 12:01:29 pm »
We definitely differ with the "proofs" used to argue a gods existence, and ultimately that is where it ends.  I require something substantive while you hold the trump card of his divine mystery. 

Offline Jointdoc55

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 02:20:19 pm »
We definitely differ with the "proofs" used to argue a gods existence, and ultimately that is where it ends.  I require something substantive while you hold the trump card of his divine mystery.
It's only a trump card if I'm right. Also, belief is a choice. I've never been one to play the "it's a mystery" card. He is how I procede with discussions of God and faith:
1. I assess the person's interest in hearing my side. Not interested? No problem.
2. I assume that the person with whom I am talking has put some thought into why he/she believes what he/she believes - including God and faith issues.
3. I acknowledge that many others do not believe what I believe, and for me to say, "I know because I know" simply doesn't ring true. Furthermore, it gives the impression to many that I haven't given it much thought myself.
4. I don't claim to be able to "prove" God exists, or that my view of Him is correct. I simply state what I believe and why.
I think this approach is the best way to express my view on the subject.

Offline SVV

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 04:08:00 pm »
It's a trump card in an argumentative discussion, not in the true existence.   It's hard to make a persuasive case from my perspective if the other party is able to circumvent explanation with the mysteries (mysteries in the way he is beyond time, space, etc) of their god's ways.

Offline Jointdoc55

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 04:22:28 pm »
I couldn't agree more.

Offline coachsparky

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2013, 04:26:05 pm »
Very good conversation with which, I have never and would never have an argument.  I will never believe in a God outside the Natural world, but if someone wants to believe in magic and it helps them live a good life, far be it from me to dissuade them.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:49:55 pm by coachsparky »
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jointdoc55

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2013, 06:38:31 pm »
I shall, then, live in a state of un-dissuadedness.

Offline coachsparky

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2013, 08:07:57 pm »
I shall, then, live in a state of un-dissuadedness.

As it should be jointdoc.  Every person has to decide if they will accept the evidence of science or reject it at their own will.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jointdoc55

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 09:05:38 am »
Sparky, science does not disprove the existence of God.

Offline coachsparky

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 10:11:55 am »
Sparky, science does not disprove the existence of God.

I agree, it does not delve into the supernatural because science is focused on the natural world and a scientific world view does not accept that anything beyond the natural world exists.  In fact since a belief in god cannot be falsified, it by definition falls outside the sphere of science.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline head n arm

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 04:44:01 pm »
If you agree that it is outside the sphere of science, then why do you reject the idea since it can't be proven scientifically? Seems like you should go to another sphere when mentioning God.
"I'm actually worse at picking winners in wrestling than I am MMA, and that is saying something"

Offline SVV

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 05:09:46 pm »
If you agree that it is outside the sphere of science, then why do you reject the idea since it can't be proven scientifically? Seems like you should go to another sphere when mentioning God.

For the same reason you reject the idea that a giant invisible anus hovers above and dumps sh!t piranhas on us if we're mean to our fellow man.  Unless of course you're willing to think it's possible.

Offline head n arm

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Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 05:37:03 pm »
Well, I've never heard of that one. I wasn't trying to annoy anyone. I just thought it odd that Sparky said God was outside the sphere of science, yet used science as his argument against it.
"I'm actually worse at picking winners in wrestling than I am MMA, and that is saying something"