Author Topic: I'm just sayin'  (Read 22055 times)

Offline coachsparky

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 14015
  • Tolerate everthing but Intolerance
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #210 on: September 24, 2013, 10:57:27 PM »
Not only is your understanding of multi variable controls lacking, evolution also seems beyond your keen, variation within the kind is not macro evolution. Regarding creation/origins, which evolution is really all about, that is, the origin of life free of intentionality, most would agree there are only two options:

1. The was nothing, then it exploded. From nothing everything came, even stardust, and we're made of stardust
2. God created it all, or set the creation in process and it is unfolding according to His plan

These options reflect the existing Big Bang Cosmology and the Supreme Being cosmology. Interestingly enough. Both are Faith based:

1. Science is founded on a telological assumption, not a fact, that assumption is every phenomena has a material (non supernatural) explanation. Proof of my assertion is easily shown, "Prove all phenomena have materialist causes." This is of course impossible as I'll just keep asking for proof of the proofs. Hence the rationale for granting the assumption, move forward with arguments, not backwards proving proofs.
2. Christianitys 'downside' is actually more 'modest' than the downside the telological assumption granted above immunizes science from (infinite regress) as Christ is either a madman, a liar, a time traveler or God. Only four options really. Madman and liar are dismissed out of hand leaving only time traveler or God as an option. Time travel (excepting going forward) violates all science, ergo, Jesus is God. Since He is God, He is what He said He is, Logos, "Through Him all things were made....." QED....God created the universe and we're not stardust.

BTW Ocianain, I thought the pope was infallible, why do you not follow his teaching the evolution is a fact?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline coachsparky

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 14015
  • Tolerate everthing but Intolerance
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #211 on: September 24, 2013, 11:56:44 PM »
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19956961/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-creation-vs-evolution-clash-absurdity/#.UkJeXT8YlaA

Quote
Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.

The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline LILHOWDOG

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 7281
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #212 on: September 25, 2013, 07:16:46 AM »
Not only is your understanding of multi variable controls lacking, evolution also seems beyond your keen, variation within the kind is not macro evolution. Regarding creation/origins, which evolution is really all about, that is, the origin of life free of intentionality, most would agree there are only two options:

1. The was nothing, then it exploded. From nothing everything came, even stardust, and we're made of stardust
2. God created it all, or set the creation in process and it is unfolding according to His plan

These options reflect the existing Big Bang Cosmology and the Supreme Being cosmology. Interestingly enough. Both are Faith based:

1. Science is founded on a telological assumption, not a fact, that assumption is every phenomena has a material (non supernatural) explanation. Proof of my assertion is easily shown, "Prove all phenomena have materialist causes." This is of course impossible as I'll just keep asking for proof of the proofs. Hence the rationale for granting the assumption, move forward with arguments, not backwards proving proofs.
2. Christianitys 'downside' is actually more 'modest' than the downside the telological assumption granted above immunizes science from (infinite regress) as Christ is either a madman, a liar, a time traveler or God. Only four options really. Madman and liar are dismissed out of hand leaving only time traveler or God as an option. Time travel (excepting going forward) violates all science, ergo, Jesus is God. Since He is God, He is what He said He is, Logos, "Through Him all things were made....." QED....God created the universe and we're not stardust.

Classic ID tactic....since when is evolution about origins/creation?  ctc was asking for evidence of DNA information increase and the study I cited showed that.  If you get to define terms and always twist the debate back to origins instead of evolution then there really is no debate on evolution.  Mutation + natural selection will increase information in the genome.

Offline ocianain

  • I Need More Hobbies
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #213 on: September 25, 2013, 05:17:39 PM »
It's always been about origins, the name of the book was, Origin of the Species. Interestingly enough man was not discussed in this book, everything else was, but not man, the sub text was clear though. Descent of Man was published much later, after the shock of Origins settled down, as the title implies, it covers mans descent from a common ancestor. Of course, that ancestor must have a common ancestor with "someone" else, ad infinitum, again infinite regress. It is implicit in the theory. None of this is ID, it's just not a debatable point, just like my point regarding science being granted on an assumption is also a fact.

Darwinism, natural selection as a mechanism for naturalistic evolution (evolution as a theory goes back as far as the ancient Greeks, all that was lacking was the means, the mechanism) is laissez faire economics entered into the biological world (Bertrand Russels words, not mine, both Darwin and Wallace "discovered" natural selection after reading the same book by Thomas Malrthus, http://www.amazon.com/Principle-Population-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199540454/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1380143055&sr=8-2&keywords=thomas+malthus) So, natural selection is simply Adams Smiths invisable hand entered into biology and just as Smiths invisible hand separates wheat from the chaff as it were, so too does natural selection, see Descent for Darwins prediction for a race war (survival of the fittest after all) and resulting genocide of the black and yellow races.

    "In October 1838, that is, fifteen months after I had begun my systematic inquiry, I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population, and being well prepared to appreciate the struggle for existence which everywhere goes on from long- continued observation of the habits of animals and plants, it at once struck me that under these circumstances favourable variations would tend to be preserved, and unfavourable ones to be destroyed. The results of this would be the formation of a new species. Here, then I had at last got a theory by which to work".

Charles Darwin, from his autobiography. (1876)

All very interesting, but I don't think it's real science. It's simply an atheist creation story.
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb

Offline LILHOWDOG

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 7281
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #214 on: September 25, 2013, 05:33:22 PM »
Origin of SPECIES, i.e., not origin of life.  Twist away.....

Offline ocianain

  • I Need More Hobbies
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2013, 05:46:05 PM »
Errr...yes it is, speciation is the change of one kind to another kind through subtle variations (natural selection), so "Origin of the Species" is all about the origin of life (as the change from one species to another through variation both points forward and backward), it can not be separated from it except by willful refusal to acknowledge reality. As coach has said, materialistic evolution (regardless of means) compels one to believe we came from rocks.
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb

Offline LILHOWDOG

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 7281
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2013, 07:37:16 PM »
3.8 billion years is a loooong time

Offline coachsparky

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 14015
  • Tolerate everthing but Intolerance
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #217 on: September 25, 2013, 07:48:23 PM »
3.8 billion years is a loooong time

LHD, the creationists flail away and squeal like stuck pigs when it is pointed out that evolution has absolutely nothing to do with how the first life got here.  They realize that evolution is actually a scientific fact and they have no arguments that can stand against it.  It is as much a scientific fact as gravity or magnetism.  They know it and their only defense is to try to bring origins science which is in its infancy into the discussion.  It is sad watching them attempt to joust against the juggernaut that evolution is.  It like the Catholic church trying to say the sun revolves around the Earth to keep the Earth and humans as the center of the Universe.  They have already lost, just as the Catholic Church did back then but they do not know it.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline coachsparky

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 14015
  • Tolerate everthing but Intolerance
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #218 on: September 25, 2013, 11:21:40 PM »
Errr...yes it is, speciation is the change of one kind to another kind through subtle variations (natural selection), so "Origin of the Species" is all about the origin of life (as the change from one species to another through variation both points forward and backward), it can not be separated from it except by willful refusal to acknowledge reality. As coach has said, materialistic evolution (regardless of means) compels one to believe we came from rocks.

Unfortunately for ocianain, that is undeniable, even the bible says we came from rocks.  After all it says: "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  the dust of the ground comes from brocken down rocks.  So we all agree life came originally from rocks, scientist are just looking for the actual mechanisms that were used by Nature to make it happen.  You can call it Nature or you can call it God, doesn't matter it still happened.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline ctc

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 15874
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2013, 07:24:23 AM »
Errr...yes it is, speciation is the change of one kind to another kind through subtle variations (natural selection), so "Origin of the Species" is all about the origin of life (as the change from one species to another through variation both points forward and backward), it can not be separated from it except by willful refusal to acknowledge reality. As coach has said, materialistic evolution (regardless of means) compels one to believe we came from rocks.

Unfortunately for ocianain, that is undeniable, even the bible says we came from rocks.  After all it says: "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  the dust of the ground comes from brocken down rocks.  So we all agree life came originally from rocks, scientist are just looking for the actual mechanisms that were used by Nature to make it happen.  You can call it Nature or you can call it God, doesn't matter it still happened.
Excellent.  Exactly what I have been saying.  Evolution is "rocks to man".  Thank you, Sparkles.   ;D
Several are on "ignore".   I won't argue with the ignorant and disrespectful..
 "People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive" ~ Blaise Pascal

Offline coachsparky

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 14015
  • Tolerate everthing but Intolerance
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #220 on: September 26, 2013, 09:19:27 AM »
Errr...yes it is, speciation is the change of one kind to another kind through subtle variations (natural selection), so "Origin of the Species" is all about the origin of life (as the change from one species to another through variation both points forward and backward), it can not be separated from it except by willful refusal to acknowledge reality. As coach has said, materialistic evolution (regardless of means) compels one to believe we came from rocks.

Unfortunately for ocianain, that is undeniable, even the bible says we came from rocks.  After all it says: "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  the dust of the ground comes from brocken down rocks.  So we all agree life came originally from rocks, scientist are just looking for the actual mechanisms that were used by Nature to make it happen.  You can call it Nature or you can call it God, doesn't matter it still happened.
Excellent.  Exactly what I have been saying.  Evolution is "rocks to man".  Thank you, Sparkles.   ;D

BZZZZZZ WRONG!  Evolution is how the first extremely simple single celled organism which we have fossil record of having occurred about approximately 3.6 billion years ago, developed through a very gradual process into the wide variety of life forms we have on Earth.  Evolution says nothing about how that first cell got here.  That is a branch of science called origins science.  Origins science would talk about how the natural elements available on earth became self replicating simple cells which eventually became the first single celled life forms that were the ancestors of all life on earth and from there evolution tells the rest of the story.  Creation is though indeed a rocks to man story.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline mspart

  • LXP
  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 20665
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #221 on: September 28, 2013, 03:51:15 PM »
Errr...yes it is, speciation is the change of one kind to another kind through subtle variations (natural selection), so "Origin of the Species" is all about the origin of life (as the change from one species to another through variation both points forward and backward), it can not be separated from it except by willful refusal to acknowledge reality. As coach has said, materialistic evolution (regardless of means) compels one to believe we came from rocks.

I agree OC.  If you look at any evolution chart, it always goes back to an amoeba or something.  The obvious question is how did the amoeba get placed there?  For my part, DNA (and for that matter hemoglobin) is just too complicated to have been derived naturally like rocks turning into a watch.  I don't believe that fantasy.

mspart

Offline coachsparky

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 14015
  • Tolerate everthing but Intolerance
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #222 on: September 28, 2013, 07:49:34 PM »
Errr...yes it is, speciation is the change of one kind to another kind through subtle variations (natural selection), so "Origin of the Species" is all about the origin of life (as the change from one species to another through variation both points forward and backward), it can not be separated from it except by willful refusal to acknowledge reality. As coach has said, materialistic evolution (regardless of means) compels one to believe we came from rocks.

I agree OC.  If you look at any evolution chart, it always goes back to an amoeba or something.  The obvious question is how did the amoeba get placed there?  For my part, DNA (and for that matter hemoglobin) is just too complicated to have been derived naturally like rocks turning into a watch.  I don't believe that fantasy.

mspart

The problem is in a false analogy.  The first self replicating cells would have been extremely simple pseudo-life that are no where near as complicated as a mechanical device that tells time.  These would have slowly developed into the first true life that kick started organic life on Earth.  BTW, if you believe in creation, you believe man came in an instant from rocks to living in its current form.  That is a much greater leap than a simple single cell organism.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Griffin

  • Schoolboy
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #223 on: September 29, 2013, 05:28:12 PM »
CTC said: “Oh, I know how it works, alright.  Chemical evolution starts with a bunch of rocks and time and shakes it all together and out comes life.  Macro-evolution takes that magical first life as a single cell organism and miraculously ends up with man, animals, plants, fish, birds, amphibians, and every other life form just as we have today.”

Your statement here demonstrates that you do in fact NOT know how evolution works. You have clearly gotten all of your information on the subject from other creationists, such as the web site Answersingenesis. The problem is they don’t understand the subject either. Or maybe they do and they’re just lying to people who don’t know any better. What you call ‘chemical evolution’ is not part biological evolution, it is part of abiogenesis. Biological evolution is not dependent on life arising by natural means, the fact that it is here is enough. Remember, evolution is not atheism. It seems you still don't understand that simple fact. I will not defend atheism, but I will defend evolution.

As for your demand for examples of an ‘increase in DNA information’, neither you nor the link you provided have given me an objective way to measure it. Give me this and I’ll see what I can do for you. I have already told you were to find examples of macroevolution, which is a change from one kind to another (defined as organisms which can reproduce). You did not attempt to dispute the use of this definition as your website provided it. Now examples should be easy for you to find. Simply search the peer reviewed literature for ‘speciation’. By the way, do you believe there was an 'increase in DNA information' in our evolution from our most recent ancestor with the other great apes?

Coachsparky, you have greatly misunderstood my motives for using the definition of species. It has nothing to do with creationists. I use the same definition when I am speaking to men of science. There is a growing movement within the scientific community to abandon our current taxonomic system as much of it cannot be measured objectively. The lines between families or orders are largely arbitrary. The only classification which can be measured to any extent is that of species. So why not make that as objective as possible, at least when dealing with sexually reproducing populations. 

Ocianain, you are speaking historically. The study of the origins of life was indeed once considered to be in the same field as biological evolution, but no longer. Today, biological evolution is limited to the diversification of life, and we have a fair understanding of the mechanisms at work. Please explain how these mechanisms can account for the origins of life. Also, please use sources no older than a century. Darwin is not very relevant in the modern field of biological evolution. In any case, it is irrelevant to evolution how life came about. It is here and we can/have seen it diversify (evolve).

Now does anyone have any scientific objection to evolution? By this I mean objections to the diversification of organism and the development of new species (kinds) through the understood mechanisms. If so, state them, along with the along with the definition of any terms as you are using them and a way to measure said terms.

Offline ocianain

  • I Need More Hobbies
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just sayin'
« Reply #224 on: October 12, 2013, 05:07:12 PM »
Griffin said, "Ocianain, you are speaking historically. The study of the origins of life was indeed once considered to be in the same field as biological evolution, but no longer. Today, biological evolution is limited to the diversification of life, and we have a fair understanding of the mechanisms at work. Please explain how these mechanisms can account for the origins of life. Also, please use sources no older than a century."

True. When did this occur? Who made the announcement? Ditto. Ditto. Your challenge to me to explain "....how theese mechanisms can account for the origin of life" is puzzling to me. Do you believe they can't and challenge me to do so? If so, why? I agree with you.

"Darwin is not very relevant in the modern field of biological evolution"

I would agree.

" In any case, it is irrelevant to evolution how life came about. It is here and we can/have seen it diversify (evolve)."

Disagree.

"Now does anyone have any scientific objection to evolution? By this I mean objections to the diversification of organism and the development of new species (kinds) through the understood mechanisms."

You said above Darwin is not very relevant, what other mechanisms other than his are there? If the mechanisms are his mechanisms, he's still relevant.

 If so, state them, along with the along with the definition of any terms as you are using them and a way to measure said terms.
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb