Author Topic: High gut  (Read 3410 times)

Offline mspart

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High gut
« on: October 19, 2013, 12:31:00 PM »
Is there a reason the high gut is not used by Americans?  It seems to me to be a winner of a move with a lot of leverage, more so than the gut wrench.  Also, there is the Iron Cross that Saitiev used to employ that is pretty devastating if you can get it.  I never see this kind of activity.   

Is there a reason for this?

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Offline Rockhard

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Re: High gut
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2013, 01:23:43 PM »
I love the high gut. I think its more effective.

The Iron Cross, I believe at one time, was illegal to use because of the amount of pressure it puts on the ribs. Could be wrong though.
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Offline AKIN

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Re: High gut
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2013, 06:43:09 PM »
You don't see a lot of coaches really showing the high gut and putting a stress on it for their wrestlers. It's something they show once or twice and that's about it.

The Iron cross? Got any video?
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Offline drmuscle

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Re: High gut
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2013, 07:45:14 PM »
I think the high gut is easier to stop but easier to lock up.
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Offline PapaBearSLIM

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Re: High gut
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 11:59:04 PM »
You don't see a lot of coaches really showing the high gut and putting a stress on it for their wrestlers. It's something they show once or twice and that's about it.

The Iron cross? Got any video?

The high gut is a great move in greco especially for long kids but it will get your legs grabbed in freestyle.

Re: iron cross
Think front quarter nelson but instead of being around the neck and shoulder it's around the body.
1) From par terre snake right arm around opponent under his arm pits
2) Left hand grabs just below shoulder and collapses opponents left arm to his body
3) Right hand grabs your own left wrist pulling it tight to apply pressure like cranking a front quarter

Going in either direction works but from the position described above, driving over the left sholuder puts extreme pressure on the chest cavity. A couple years ago I think Jake O'Mara turned everybody he wrestled at the cadet duals with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDlrVPxLhnw#t=0m45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDlrVPxLhnw#t=1m52s
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 12:03:20 AM by PapaBearSLIM »

Offline mspart

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Re: High gut
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 07:12:47 PM »
it is also called the west point ride.

I think Jr's and up can use this move.  B. Saitiev used it to easily turn folks. 

Here is a clinic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngRq8cnl14g


mspart

Offline TobusRex

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Re: High gut
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 07:44:49 PM »
Thanks for the video Art. Very interesting stuff.
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Offline mspart

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Re: High gut
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2013, 12:04:55 AM »
Sure thing.  When I saw Saitiev do it, I thought, holy cow, what a hold.  It took me awhile to get figured out what he did.

As far as high gut and FS, I think a high gut and hard roll is pretty effective.  But I could be wrong having never competed at a very high level.   Varner was using it pretty well at US Nationals last year before the Olympics.

mspart

Offline AKIN

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Re: High gut
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »
OK, I kind of assumed it was the WP Ride.
Imagine the good that could be done, if people were less worried about their differences, and more worried about doing good for everyone.

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: High gut
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 12:37:51 AM »
The West Point can be brutal on the ribs, and is hard to stop, but also hard to get.  Think of the way people base out in par terre, and what it takes to get all the way to catch that far arm and bring it in.  You tend to see it from long guys, like Satiev.

To me, the middle gut is the "basic" gut, and is very painful if you box the floating ribs well.  If he can spare the effort, the defending man often tries to move the lock either up or down to relieve the pressure.

Both the high and the low gut can be very effective, but there don't seem to be as many people that can make them work well.  To me, the high gut is a pseudo-junk move, like the headlock.  Less competent athletes can be effective with it, with relatively little practice.  As the competition gets better, though, it may well stop working for these athletes, so if you didn't know better, you might think it was effective only at low levels.  But then if you watch people who are really good with it, you realize that it can be extremely effective all the way up, arguably more so than the middle gut.

The high gut employs a lot of leverage, and can turn into an effective lift.  I tend to see it work best with long guys, and the athletes of mine who have been good with it have been lanky.  On the other hand, that doesn't have to be the case:  Jim Gruenwald was very effective with a high gut and lift, and he's a stocky type.

It can definitely work in freestyle, but you have to tailor it a bit so as not to get your legs caught.  Or be long enough that you don't care that the guy grabbed your leg.

I think that you don't see it that much in the U.S. because there's a lot of follow-the-leader played here technically, and because it's probably not something that would be effective for everyone, even taught well.  It's not very common that a coach works extensively with an athlete on building a style that's suited to his talents, and less common still in the international styles where the coaching pool is much more limited.

Offline CoachPrebes

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Re: High gut
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2013, 08:07:19 AM »
If the bottom wrestler is using an active defense in par terre, the high gut should be difficult to use for the top man. While it is easier to get a lock than a mid or low gut, it is also easier to defend. I have a pretty high gut series I show that utilizes torque on the shoulders and arms, forcing them forward so it is easier to get a turn. I also have a variation of the "back breaker" from a high gut lock that is useful in Greco and is more difficult to counter. Like any technique series, the wrestler can't be sloppy or lazy. I prefer a low gut myself, but if you have the leverage, a high gut can be very effective.

Offline mspart

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Re: High gut
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 10:20:55 AM »
Here is a 2008 Olympics video of Saitiev.  He dispatches the BUL quickly.  I think he is using a high gut at first, could be the west point ride.  Not sure, the lock is on the other side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM2z4XJ3mOA

mspart

Offline mspart

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Re: High gut
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2013, 10:38:25 AM »
At 4:10, Saitiev goes to the old standby.  I haven't seen a half nelson in ages at this level.  He made it look easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqaxS6o_RHs


I appreciate the comments.  I think I agree that perhaps the high gut might not work as well at a higher level for the most part. But most kids are not there and it seems like a good way to have them experience things.  Half nelson is not used extensively in higher levels but we teach it early on.  Anyway, I appreciate the perspective.  I was hoping to find an example of Saitiev using the westpoint but I cannot find it.

mspart

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: High gut
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2013, 10:44:13 AM »
I will likely move this to our Coaching and Technique section, which is rather lonely.

Offline Rockhard

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Re: High gut
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 12:19:10 PM »
Kendall Cross I believe was very good at the high gut.
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