Author Topic: Does TOM need a separate religion area?  (Read 7050 times)

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2014, 04:40:14 pm »
In their mind, it does. File it under "intangibles" ... breaking up with your girlfriend a day before a big match has nothing to do with wrestling talent, but it can impact performance. Phil Jackson feels his zen lifestyle makes him a better coach. Henry Cejudo believed some of those sticky shock devices helped him recover better after cutting weight. None of those have to do with talent, but it doesn't stop them from believing it does and if they believe something (anything, faith, marriage, electroshock therapy) helps them ... by all means, they have the right to say such.

People have different things that drive them ... the only person who can disprove what they believe is the person themselves. If you don't believe faith has anything to do with Burroughs' success, that's fine, that's your opinion, but you're not going to convince him otherwise.

It is any rational persons right to point out that that belief is no different than believing you have a lucky pair of socks or a lucky morning routine or whatever to give you the competitive advantage.  It is a superstitious belief with not a single point of evidence that it really works.  And we should both be able to shout our beliefs from the bell tower and let people choose which one makes the most sense without the other getting bent out of shape simply because we shared our different perspectives.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2014, 05:04:11 pm »
How about just let people believe what they want to believe without feeling the need to tell them what they believe is wrong? If Jordan Burroughs believes his JB Elite Asics are a factor in him being the best in the world without any scientific evidence to prove it, how many people are going to make a point to disprove it?

How many people would even take a second look at the lucky socks or pre-game meal and comment on the absurdity of it? FEW. So why wouldn't you implore the same response if someone believes their faith is a factor. To you, it's all the same, right? So why even bother commenting if you feel it's absurd and nonsensical? The only difference between a lucky socks comment and a faith-based comment in your world is you'll take the time to make something out of a faith-based comment and completely ignore the other things athletes speak about all the time.

If you don't believe it, you don't HAVE to comment on it. You would rather tell someone they're living a lie than just appreciate what they do as an athlete. It makes it about you and what you believe and how you want to invalidate people's religious beliefs rather that simply viewing it how most of the rest of the world does -- nothing more than what an athlete thinks -- at least within the context of their training, their private lives and what they believe makes them perform in life and their sport at a higher level.

Just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean you have to exercise that right everytime someone brings up religion. Now back where you belong -- on ignore.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -- Mitch Hedberg

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2014, 05:24:34 pm »
How about just let people believe what they want to believe without feeling the need to tell them what they believe is wrong? If Jordan Burroughs believes his JB Elite Asics are a factor in him being the best in the world without any scientific evidence to prove it, how many people are going to make a point to disprove it?

How many people would even take a second look at the lucky socks or pre-game meal and comment on the absurdity of it? FEW. So why wouldn't you implore the same response if someone believes their faith is a factor. To you, it's all the same, right? So why even bother commenting if you feel it's absurd and nonsensical? The only difference between a lucky socks comment and a faith-based comment in your world is you'll take the time to make something out of a faith-based comment and completely ignore the other things athletes speak about all the time.

If you don't believe it, you don't HAVE to comment on it. You would rather tell someone they're living a lie than just appreciate what they do as an athlete. It makes it about you and what you believe and how you want to invalidate people's religious beliefs rather that simply viewing it how most of the rest of the world does -- nothing more than what an athlete thinks -- at least within the context of their training, their private lives and what they believe makes them perform in life and their sport at a higher level.

Just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean you have to exercise that right everytime someone brings up religion. Now back where you belong -- on ignore.

How about Jordan Burroughs not broadcasting his superstitions so that he doesn't influence impressionable young children.  Then I would not have the moral obligation to give the rational science based position to ensure those youngster have an opportunity to choose the truth.  It really is that simple.  If people expressing the rational view bothers you don't need express your superstitious view in public and we won't need to express ours.  Seems like a fair deal.  If you need to express yours, I have not problem with that, you have that right.  If you do so, I have an obligation to share mine.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2014, 05:36:24 pm »
It's not an obligation, it's your choice.

I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -- Mitch Hedberg

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2014, 05:42:26 pm »
The one who makes the first pronouncement is the one with the choice.  Once Jordan or any other famous Athlete has mad the choice to go public the other side has an obligation to speak up so impressionable young minds understand there is another point of view from which they can choose.  Z
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2014, 05:54:36 pm »
Oh, how altruistic of you ... protecting the minds of impressionable young people because their parents aren't capable of doing such a thing.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -- Mitch Hedberg

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2014, 05:56:33 pm »
Oh, how altruistic of you ... protecting the minds of impressionable young people because their parents aren't capable of doing such a thing.

Thanks Jason.  I take the future of our planet and especially young people very seriously.  Glad you are so astute as to have noticed.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline spider

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2014, 07:37:38 am »
Religion in sports is a very interesting subject. How often do we see champions in any sport, or winners of awards in other fields for that matter, thank God for their victory? I agree with Jason that an athlete is entitled to his beliefs and entitled to express them. Similarly, atheists such as myself have a right to express our beliefs. The fact is (if I may be so pretentious as to state what I believe to be a fact) that no one KNOWS if any religion is the true one, or if God even exists, and no one ever will. Religion is based on faith, not fact. If Jordan Borroughs or Tim Tebow believe that their faith in God helped them achieve success, no one can prove them wrong. And if a kid decides to explore a religious belief based on that, that's an issue for his parents to address. I do, however, strongly feel that pregame prayers or any school sponsored reference to religion has no place in a public institution. Privately, an athlete can do what he wants, but no team member should be forced to be part of any event referencing a religion which may be counter to his beliefs.
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Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2014, 08:28:05 am »
Religion in sports is a very interesting subject. How often do we see champions in any sport, or winners of awards in other fields for that matter, thank God for their victory? I agree with Jason that an athlete is entitled to his beliefs and entitled to express them. Similarly, atheists such as myself have a right to express our beliefs. The fact is (if I may be so pretentious as to state what I believe to be a fact) that no one KNOWS if any religion is the true one, or if God even exists, and no one ever will. Religion is based on faith, not fact. If Jordan Borroughs or Tim Tebow believe that their faith in God helped them achieve success, no one can prove them wrong. And if a kid decides to explore a religious belief based on that, that's an issue for his parents to address. I do, however, strongly feel that pregame prayers or any school sponsored reference to religion has no place in a public institution. Privately, an athlete can do what he wants, but no team member should be forced to be part of any event referencing a religion which may be counter to his beliefs.

Spider, don't you think if possible you should express your beliefs in a forum such as this where tha same kid could be exposed to them so he can explore  those beliefs as well?  Or do you agree with Jason that infidels such as us should keep our thoughts to ourselves so that kids only get one side of the story?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2014, 08:53:07 am »
There sparky goes again, missing the point entirely,asking himself look like the victim.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -- Mitch Hedberg

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2014, 11:06:38 am »
There sparky goes again, missing the point entirely,asking himself look like the victim.

Jason you sure seem to have a huge problem with allowing people to hear both sides of an issue.  Do you know who else tries to keep people from hearing both sides so they can make an informed decision?  Hint, they are not the kind of people you want in charge.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2014, 11:47:18 am »
Actually, I don't have a problem with "people" at all. I have a problem with how you do it and put yourself on a pedestal about being some freedom fighter for being anti-religion. It's not about what you're doing, but how you're doing it. I know more than my fair share of atheists and they're extremely respectful to other people's views -- not once have one of my friends called anyone else's view "mythology" "superstition" or "lies" ... they'll argue the point without actually attacking the person's belief system.

I don't know why I bother responding, because you can't be respectful to others beliefs in the context of this board. You little slice of annoyance on this board is somehow fulfilling your alleged obligation. All you've done is come off as a zealot -- and not too many people are going to entertain a conflicting viewpoint from someone who attacks their belief system in the manner you go about it.

Aren't you late to protest a youth group having a picnic at a park somewhere?

I know you're not the type of person I want in charge with your hateful, spiteful retorts.

Back on ignore.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -- Mitch Hedberg

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2014, 11:55:39 am »
Bottom line is that religion is make believe and superstition and belief in magic.  I refuse to apologize for speaking the truth.  Sorry that the truth offends some but it is what it is.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2014, 12:26:52 pm »
Btw, I have no problem wit a youth group meeting in a park.  There is a public school here in Vancouver that a church uses every Sunday for services.  My wife complained to me about that, so I checked and the pay rent to use it like any group can.  I told her  given that I don't see any problem with it.  She still doesn't like it.  What do you think of that, someone even more strident on the issue then me?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline jammen

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Re: Does TOM need a separate religion area?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2014, 01:00:28 pm »
It's not an obligation, it's your choice.

Many religious denominations are required to spread their gospel.  Such as the Pastafarians, members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Recently a Pastafarian made news when he initially wasn't allowed to wear his religious headgear, a colander, for his drivers license picture.  http://www.venganza.org/
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