Author Topic: Word Crimes  (Read 10988 times)

Offline Cruocified

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2015, 09:43:13 AM »
A rule would be more along the lines of "The pronoun must agree with the antecedent."

Making the pronoun's case agree with its antecedent would encourage you to say "John looked hungry so I bought he a sandwich".

The real rule (for the quiz) is that the case of a relative pronoun is determined by its grammatical function in its own clause.

Thanks.

If we see the antecedent as something that is static, existing only in the original form it was presented, then the rule doesn't apply to every case.  In that approach, pronouns really only have to agree on gender and number with their antecedents, because as you pointed out, the original "subject" of the antecedent can change function within a new clause.  John looked hungry.  I bought John a sandwich.  John changes from subject to object.  Any pronoun referring to John must be singular and masculine, but the case has no dependence on the original antecedent, and instead relies on the function the pronoun itself is serving in that particular clause.

It would probably be easier to just say, "The pronoun must agree with its referent."  In that case, him refers to objective John.  Even though referent and antecedent can be interchangeable, antecedent does seem to have a more strict reference to the original utterance, while referent has to do with what the word actually represents.
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Offline mspart

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2015, 11:28:27 AM »
Blah blah blah.  The only thing I remember my 10th grade English Teacher saying was "predicate nominative".  That confused me then and confuses me now. 

My Grandfather was a professor of English at Wash. State U.  You'd think this stuff would be easy for me, but I have no interest at all.  By the way, I guess he specialized in Shake a spear. 

mspart

Offline n9531l

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2015, 06:04:36 PM »
The only thing I remember my 10th grade English Teacher saying was "predicate nominative".

We can only imagine what would have happened if you had heard her say "predicate appositive". But I'm pretty sure you'll be able to tell in the following two sentences which one has a direct object and which one has a predicate appositive.

1. He killed the richest man in town.
2. He died the richest man in town.
Orthography is next to cleanliness, which is next to godliness. - n9531l

Offline mspart

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2015, 10:56:39 AM »
I'd say they are two different sentences in meaning.  That's about all I can say.  Appositive, nominative:  I have no idea what they mean. 

mspart

Offline Cruocified

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2015, 07:22:13 PM »
I'd say they are two different sentences in meaning.  That's about all I can say.  Appositive, nominative:  I have no idea what they mean. 

mspart
It's direct object and then appositive.  But now that suicide has been established, we can focus on the predicate nominative.

3.  He was the richest man in town. 
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Offline n9531l

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2015, 08:15:50 PM »
No need to stop there. We can also have a predicate adjective, a predicate genitive, and a predicate infinitive.

4. He was dead.
5. His life was of little significance.
6. He was determined to be deceased.

Mspart, are you going to be able to keep all these predicate complements straight?
Orthography is next to cleanliness, which is next to godliness. - n9531l

Offline heelpick

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2015, 08:44:22 PM »
I have no idea what you are saying.

Offline Cruocified

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2015, 09:42:22 PM »
I have no idea what you are saying.

That's a little more complex than the suicidal rich man clauseterfuk.

The elided preposition after the negated direct object is marvelous.  Not literally of course.  That would be of... or about.
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Offline TobusRex

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2015, 12:46:14 PM »
Now I understand why intellectuals are shot first.
Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul? - Clarence Darrow

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2015, 07:59:37 PM »
Now I understand why intellectuals are shot first.

I thought it was the lawyers  ???
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all that want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics" -Thomas Sowell

Offline heelpick

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2015, 10:13:52 PM »
Everyone hates lawyers until you need one

Offline TobusRex

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2015, 09:32:51 AM »
Did you guys see the first episode of "Better Call Saul"? Pretty funny stuff.
Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul? - Clarence Darrow

Offline ocianain

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2015, 08:20:29 PM »
As far a grammar Nazi's go, we got some Waffen SS here.
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2015, 08:29:52 PM »
As far a grammar Nazi's go, we got some Waffen SS here.

"NAZIS"!  DAS IS PLURAL, NOT GENITIVE, YOU FILTHY SCHWEINEHUND!

Offline ocianain

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Re: Word Crimes
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2015, 09:08:39 PM »
My very point, thanks for proving it!                         
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb