Author Topic: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!  (Read 1393 times)

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« on: December 30, 2016, 06:01:37 pm »
Dear Experienced refs.....

Luckily, this has not happened to me, but this scenario came to my head and I was wondering what would be the proper procedure on how to signal and call the following...

Wrestler A takes Wrester B to his back.
Wrestler B swears

Obviously (at least I hope...I couldn't find anything in the rule book)..this would be a delayed UCM (Unsportsmanlike Conduct -- Match point), and you would award this at the next stoppage or break in action

My question is....How do you signal this?!?! Normally, on UCM, the action is blown dead and stopped dead.

My guess would be......use arm signal for UC [would this be vocalized as well?], go back to counting backs, and then wait for a stop in action to award the UCM followed by the NF?

If I'm completely wrong, feel free to chime in...I don't think you would stop the action even though, in all other situations that I think of, UCM is an automatic stoppage, but I could be wrong there too.

Thanks!

Offline AKIN

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2016, 07:19:19 pm »
Is it a reaction to being taken to his back, and not directed at anyone in particular? How loud is the swear? Would anyone else, other than you and the other wrestler hear it clearly?

Yes, not very loud, no?

No call warranted. Once action has completed, explain to the wrestler that he needs to watch his language, even though you understand it was a reaction to the action.

Don't look for boogers. Just my opinion.
If you want respect, be respectful.

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2016, 07:40:18 pm »
Akin,

5.30.2 states "swearing" is considered Unsportsmanlike Conduct. However, I get what you're saying....so hypothetically speaking, to make it more clear....Wrestler B yells, "#$@" so everyone in the gym hears it....

What would the protocol be?

Thanks

Offline matref0

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2017, 08:56:25 am »
When making this call, simply delay your signal as well.  When the situation concludes (you stop the match, out of bounds, period ends, near fall ends), your mechanics should be be 1.  Signal and award appropriate near fall (near fall earned +1) and then show the signal for the infraction (unsportsmanlike, illegal, unnecessary roughness, technical violation) and then the point.  So if wrestler A puts B into near fall for five seconds and B swears like in your scenario, when the action ends:

Mechanic 1:  Use the stop the match signal
Mechanic 2:  Use Near Fall Signal and award four nearfall points to Wrestler A
Mechanic 3:  Use the Unsportsmanlike conduct signal and award one penalty point to Wrestler A

You can use the same mechanic for any type of infraction

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 05:11:17 pm »
Matref,

You're the best!!! 5-11-2i....duh....just added recently.....I don't know why I didn't see it the first place. I would have not remembered to give the "extra" point if it wasn't for your friendly reminder.

Excellent explanation. This is a great website!

Thanks so much!

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 06:09:24 pm »
5.30.2 states "swearing" is considered Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

I wouldn't take that as a mandate to punish everyone who curses.  Imagine the situation if the rules didn't state that swearing was illegal.  Wrestlers and coaches could do it consistently and loudly with impunity.

In my opinion, Unsportsmanlike Conduct is for unsportsmanlike conduct.  I don't consider a single outburst of frustration, not directed at another person, from an otherwise well-behaved athlete to be that. The goal is to keep the match going in a good direction, and let the athletes decide it between them, not play "gotcha" with rules.

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2017, 09:20:39 pm »
Ray,

I get your point of view, but...

As a coach, I never tolerated it
As a teacher, I never tolerate it
As a referee, in the pregame discussion....I REVIEW this with all wrestlers. There's no need for profanity ever during a wrestling match.Period. This is my book, and others may be different. This comes down to discipline in my honest opinion. As a ref, I warn all of them during the pre-match duties, I am extremely consistent with this call. There is no reason for a wrestler to use profanity at any given time.

There has been a time, during blood time when a kid was trying to stop the bleeding and he says, "f--k" ....I called it. There has been a time when a kid said, "f--k" after he was pinned. That's a team point.

In regards to the blood time situation....if I don't call it....to me, it looks like it's acceptable to the coaches who are standing right there, even if I say watch your language, especially when I told them during pre-match duty. In regards to getting pinned, and only the other wrestler and I heard it....that's not okay either. Profanity is NOT acceptable, ever. To me, it's black and white. However, I'm not going to criticize another ref for NOT making that call.

I get all sides of the argument, but I'm sticking with how I approach it. There are 1,000,001 other words a athlete could use instead to vent their frustration and anger with oneself. I do see the difference between saying "f--k" towards oneself and towards another person....however, the penalty is the same for me.


Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 12:27:23 am »
There are 1,000,001 other words a athlete could use instead to vent their frustration and anger with oneself.

I entirely agree.  People who use the same profanity, over and over with no variation, are a terrible bore.

While I don't see the rule as a mandate to make the call in every case, it'd be pretty hard to fault you for doing so; it is, after all, a rule.  My only caveat would be that your approach, since it isn't the norm, might violate people's expectations, but you handle that by addressing the issue beforehand.  So if that's your thing, carry on.

I do wonder about this, though:

There has been a time, during blood time when a kid was trying to stop the bleeding and he says, "f--k" ....I called it.

Are you really going to follow that wherever it leads?  A kid dislocates his elbow, lets out a curse in the midst of screaming with pain, and you dock a team point?

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 10:06:29 am »
Ray,

There are always exceptions to the rule, and each case I address individually. In the last situation you speak of, I may or may not be flexible. There are still a lot of variables involved there. I don't enjoy making the call, frankly, I hate it, especially during hotly contested matches (individual and team )...however, kids' language in general has been on the decline with social media. I like to have a clean, competitive, fair match which means I must be consistent with all calls.

In the case you speak of the dislocated elbow, regardless of the call [unless it's after a pin or tech fall or at the end of the third period], it's a "meaningless point" in the sense it will be an injury default.

There are always exceptions to the rule though.

Offline red viking

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 09:14:00 pm »
For me the line is crossed when the crowd can hear it. An injury is different though.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline red viking

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 12:58:56 pm »
Also, as a general rule of thumb you should NEVER take a wrestler off his back as a result of that wrestler doing anything illegal, so certainly not any USC. If it's bad enough to stop the match and take him off his back, it's probably bad enough to call flagrant misconduct. That's straight from the mouth of one of the main rule interpreters in the Midwest. If he does do something illegal you can usually get the wrestlers out of the situation by telling him to release whatever he has or even manually correcting it yourself (e.g. pulling his hands off the other wrestler's singlet or headgear).

A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 01:44:35 pm »
Red Viking,

I agree, that's why I asked how to delay the call. Absolutely! Not going to let the defensive wrestler on his back get off too soon........what I hate is the "tap out" and the scream....

Offline red viking

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 03:49:50 pm »
Red Viking,

I agree, that's why I asked how to delay the call. Absolutely! Not going to let the defensive wrestler on his back get off too soon........what I hate is the "tap out" and the scream....

I've had that happen before. I hate it too. I've either called the pin if it was close or if it wasn't close let it get close (if they really want to give up they'll pin themselves) but if he can't pin himself just given the injury TO with 4 nearfall points. Coach of the offensive wrestler will have a fit but you never know what's going on with the guy on the bottom. Maybe he's having an asthma attack or really on the verge of passing out. Then if you don't grant the injury TO and he goes unconscious it's your fault. 
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Delayed Unsportsmanlike conduct call?!?!
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 04:15:07 pm »
In the case you speak of the dislocated elbow, regardless of the call [unless it's after a pin or tech fall or at the end of the third period], it's a "meaningless point" in the sense it will be an injury default.

This is true, I'd forgotten:  match point until the match is over. And, in fact, I believe the match isn't over, for the purpose of this, until a hand is raised.  However the match point could easily equate to a team point, if it causes the match score to cross a threshold. Plus, there's the social matter of almost literally adding insult to injury.

Profanity is NOT acceptable, ever. To me, it's black and white.

There are always exceptions to the rule, and each case I address individually.

You can see why I asked.  I don't mean to give you a hard time on this; I really was curious.  Often when people state things as an absolute, they really mean it's almost absolute, except for rare or extreme cases.  Other times, they really mean it, and they're determined to follow through no matter what the circumstances or consequences.  The latter people are interesting, though often at least a little crazy and probably dangerous if there's any chance that their fixed ideas can do harm.  I'd respect even that, if it was your position, but it sounds like this is just a very important principle for you, rather than a matter of fanaticism.  Principled, consistent referees are good to have, so bravo.