Poll

Does  altruistic socialist pursuit of  a "utopia" inevitably lead to mass murder?

YES
9 (52.9%)
NO
5 (29.4%)
MAYBE
3 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: June 13, 2009, 07:37:19 PM

Author Topic: altruistic socialism and mass murder  (Read 2077 times)

Offline BOG

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altruistic socialism and mass murder
« on: June 13, 2009, 07:37:19 PM »
If the former self described altruistic socialist governments of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had been  magically restricted in some manner to simply protecting individual rights rather than  being "free" to pursue each of their leader's utopian aims regarding the   "good of society". Would mass murder have occurred as it did ?
\'just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN\' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACIS1inmjFc

Offline usnlt7676

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 07:41:13 PM »
Quote from: "BOG"
If the former self described altruistic socialist governments of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had been  magically restricted in some manner to simply protecting individual rights rather than  being "free" to pursue each of their leader's utopian aims regarding the   "good of society". Would mass murder have occurred as it did ?

Humans are fallible, so this cannot be avoided. It's inevitable...anytime dictators take power for the good of the people, it ends with being for the good of themselves only b/c there will always be people who oppose them. And in that system opposition is repressed violently. Revolution is great as long as it isn't a revolution against you.

Offline BOG

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2009, 07:50:33 PM »
Quote from: "usnlt7676"
Quote from: "BOG"
If the former self described altruistic socialist governments of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had been  magically restricted in some manner to simply protecting individual rights rather than  being "free" to pursue each of their leader's utopian aims regarding the   "good of society". Would mass murder have occurred as it did ?

Humans are fallible, so this cannot be avoided. It's inevitable...anytime dictators take power for the good of the people, it ends with being for the good of themselves only b/c there will always be people who oppose them. And in that system opposition is repressed violently. Revolution is great as long as it isn't a revolution against you.
 I agree.
The so called altruistic dictatorship established to create the leaders utopia will also always need scapegoats to blame it's own failures on. This is the pretext which leads to mass murder.
\'just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN\' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACIS1inmjFc

Offline ocianain

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2009, 09:00:58 PM »
The desire to create heaven on earth leads to hell on earth for someone.
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb

Offline Anonymous

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2009, 09:09:43 PM »
Can't much the same be said for any attempt to create a utopia of sorts?  A completely free market with no regulation would lead to exploitation in some fashion or another.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 09:20:51 PM by Anonymous »

Offline ocianain

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2009, 09:14:36 PM »
I don't believe in laizze faire economics because, as you note it leads to horrible exploitation
The Seeking For One Thing Will Find Another - Irish Proverb

Offline Anonymous

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2009, 09:24:12 PM »
I don't believe that neither Hitler nor Stalin were trying to create a socialist utopia.  Neither had their constituents in mind when they centralized all the power.  It was about creating a dictatorship.

Offline BOG

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2009, 01:53:29 AM »
Quote from: "jvscrub"
I don't believe that neither Hitler nor Stalin were trying to create a socialist utopia.  Neither had their constituents in mind when they centralized all the power.  It was about creating a dictatorship.

They both used propaganda to persuade their country's citizen's to centralize all power in themselves. Dictators use envy and  fear to achieve power.
\'just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN\' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACIS1inmjFc

Offline jpv

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009, 02:07:19 AM »
Quote from: "BOG"
Quote from: "jvscrub"
I don't believe that neither Hitler nor Stalin were trying to create a socialist utopia.  Neither had their constituents in mind when they centralized all the power.  It was about creating a dictatorship.

They both used propaganda to persuade their country's citizen's to centralize all power in themselves. Dictators use envy and  fear to achieve power.

BOG, you conveniently ignored jvscrub's point, which was that most of these mass murders you go on and on about weren't actually trying to form a Utopia. Pol Pot's regime might be the best example, but I would say that was an anomaly.

What about socialist societies like Sweden, England, and Canada?

Offline BOG

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 10:30:28 PM »
It's pretty simple. If socialism attains total authority in a state folks will be killed to justify the continuance of a failing system. In the states you listed some free market is still allowed to keep their brand of socialism-lite on life support.
\'just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN\' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACIS1inmjFc

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 05:57:47 PM »
The Swedes, Argentinians and Finns were pretty much socialistic but they didn't do the genocide thing, so I said maybe.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all that want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics" -Thomas Sowell

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 05:59:38 PM »
Quote from: "jpv"
Quote from: "BOG"
Quote from: "jvscrub"
I don't believe that neither Hitler nor Stalin were trying to create a socialist utopia.  Neither had their constituents in mind when they centralized all the power.  It was about creating a dictatorship.

They both used propaganda to persuade their country's citizen's to centralize all power in themselves. Dictators use envy and  fear to achieve power.

BOG, you conveniently ignored jvscrub's point, which was that most of these mass murders you go on and on about weren't actually trying to form a Utopia. Pol Pot's regime might be the best example, but I would say that was an anomaly.

What about socialist societies like Sweden, England, and Canada?

They (Hilter, Stalin, Mao etc) also claimed that their policies would lead to a utopia.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all that want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics" -Thomas Sowell

Offline BOG

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Re: altruistic socialism and mass murder
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 08:14:39 PM »
Socialism doesn't work long term since increased government intervention will just create further economic havoc. Mass murder is the option totalitarian socialism often chooses to temporarily ward off total  economic failure . Communist China chose to allow more of a free  market in their society to avoid the need for mass murder. Both Russia and mainland China are fascist states now imho. A fascist state simply allows some aspects of a free market to operate under total governmental control to prevent economic collapse. A fascist state doesn't try to micro manage every aspect of their market. In a Communist state the government actually does try to micro-manage every aspect of their market  .This is the major difference between fascism and Communism which are "peas in the same socialist pod".
\'just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN\' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACIS1inmjFc