The Open Mat Forum

Wrestling => College => Topic started by: The Du on February 22, 2010, 12:12:39 AM

Title: Cautions
Post by: The Du on February 22, 2010, 12:12:39 AM
VG mentions an inordinate amount of cautions in the Bedlam match.

i've never seen so many cautions in my entire life than ive seen in college matches this season. i knew it was going to be this way. when i covered the Lehigh wrestle-offs, there was a problem immediately. it was bizzare. i thought, 'this is going to be a problem for a while'.

and i dont think it has to do with individual refs. im pretty certain there was a rule change as to how to line-up top-and-bottom that differs from the past. navel-before-elbow i believe and maybe some other nuance.

this has very visibly been a problem and i think we'll see it continue in Omaha.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: ViseGrip on February 22, 2010, 12:22:35 AM
Interestingly enough after the dual I had a brief chat with Jim (cant remember his last name) from wichita who is a just retired NCAA tournament ref who is now supervising them and he said the same thing.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: SetonHallPirate on February 22, 2010, 12:53:55 AM
Quote from: "ViseGrip"
Interestingly enough after the dual I had a brief chat with Jim (cant remember his last name) from wichita who is a just retired NCAA tournament ref who is now supervising them and he said the same thing.

Ramirez?
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: ViseGrip on February 22, 2010, 01:27:00 AM
Quote from: "SetonHallPirate"
Quote from: "ViseGrip"
Interestingly enough after the dual I had a brief chat with Jim (cant remember his last name) from wichita who is a just retired NCAA tournament ref who is now supervising them and he said the same thing.

Ramirez?
Yes.... a REALLY nice guy and I think one of the VERY BEST refs.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: AKIN on February 22, 2010, 01:32:49 AM
Quote from: "The Du"
VG mentions an inordinate amount of cautions in the Bedlam match.

i've never seen so many cautions in my entire life than ive seen in college matches this season. i knew it was going to be this way. when i covered the Lehigh wrestle-offs, there was a problem immediately. it was bizzare. i thought, 'this is going to be a problem for a while'.

and i dont think it has to do with individual refs. im pretty certain there was a rule change as to how to line-up top-and-bottom that differs from the past. navel-before-elbow i believe and maybe some other nuance.

this has very visibly been a problem and i think we'll see it continue in Omaha.

Bottom man set, then top man gets feet and knees set, then belly, then elbow, then an audible "set" call from the official, then the whistle.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: The Du on February 22, 2010, 01:39:24 AM
^^^yes. i think people are having a problem with this, including the officials.

i didn't realize Jim Ramirez retired.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: Jason Bryant on February 22, 2010, 02:38:38 AM
One of the EWL coaches (who shall remain nameless for the purposes of this discussion) was telling me an official dcalled 26 cautions in one of their duals. This was two years ago.

The kicker?

Said Coach: "... including the first double caution I'd ever seen."
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: OkieSpladle on February 22, 2010, 10:30:18 AM
Too many years of guys being able to get a rolling start or anticipate the whistle.  With the rule change it has eliminated that, to some extent, but now we have cautions left and right.  I could be wrong but I thought I heard earlier in the year that the officials were supposed to give a pause after the set and vary the length of the pause so as to eliminate the people anticipating the whistle, but I don't remember where I heard that so I could be completely off base.  The fact of the matter is, if you go on the whistle, you'll be fine, but these guys have been doing it the same way for so long that its hard to quit trying to gain that edge.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: brycemus on February 22, 2010, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: "OkieSpladle"
Too many years of guys being able to get a rolling start or anticipate the whistle.  With the rule change it has eliminated that, to some extent, but now we have cautions left and right.  I could be wrong but I thought I heard earlier in the year that the officials were supposed to give a pause after the set and vary the length of the pause so as to eliminate the people anticipating the whistle, but I don't remember where I heard that so I could be completely off base.  The fact of the matter is, if you go on the whistle, you'll be fine, but these guys have been doing it the same way for so long that its hard to quit trying to gain that edge.

You're just mad that I was better at anticipating the start whistle than you were!

I don't like the new starts...but they don't seem to be slowing down Keddy.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: AKIN on February 22, 2010, 01:33:13 PM
Quote from: "OkieSpladle"
Too many years of guys being able to get a rolling start or anticipate the whistle.  With the rule change it has eliminated that, to some extent, but now we have cautions left and right.  I could be wrong but I thought I heard earlier in the year that the officials were supposed to give a pause after the set and vary the length of the pause so as to eliminate the people anticipating the whistle, but I don't remember where I heard that so I could be completely off base.  The fact of the matter is, if you go on the whistle, you'll be fine, but these guys have been doing it the same way for so long that its hard to quit trying to gain that edge.

From what I have seen, some of the officials are still not actually saying set once the top man has gotten there. Or another thing I have noticed is the officials saying set as the hand is moving toward the elbow, and then blowing the whistle immediately. Which is basically no change from the way it was before the rule was put in place.

One way to stop this would be to keep the whistle out of your mouth until after the top man has gotten set, then say "Set", then put the whistle in your mouth and start the action. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: matref0 on February 22, 2010, 02:10:40 PM
With the requirement to say "set", the sequence to get in the proper position is really irrelevant now.  All conditions must be met before you say "set."

I have noticed officials, including myself, get so hung up on the sequence we fail to look at other aspects of a legal starting position; like the top wrestler straddling his opponents feet.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: ViseGrip on February 22, 2010, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: "OkieSpladle"
Too many years of guys being able to get a rolling start or anticipate the whistle.  With the rule change it has eliminated that, to some extent, but now we have cautions left and right.  I could be wrong but I thought I heard earlier in the year that the officials were supposed to give a pause after the set and vary the length of the pause so as to eliminate the people anticipating the whistle, but I don't remember where I heard that so I could be completely off base.  The fact of the matter is, if you go on the whistle, you'll be fine, but these guys have been doing it the same way for so long that its hard to quit trying to gain that edge.

One of the problems I saw Sunday was the ref was too uncoordinated to move his hand and blow the whistle at the same time.

I agree with AKIN... they should take the damned whistle out of their mouth and say "SET" then put the whistle back in!
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: The Du on February 22, 2010, 03:33:23 PM
Quote from: OkieSpladle
Too many years of guys being able to get a rolling start or anticipate the whistle.  With the rule change it has eliminated that, to some extent, but now we have cautions left and right.  

thats the long and short of it right there
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: Julio on February 22, 2010, 03:47:23 PM
Quote from: "matref0"
With the requirement to say "set", the sequence to get in the proper position is really irrelevant now.  All conditions must be met before you say "set."

I have noticed officials, including myself, get so hung up on the sequence we fail to look at other aspects of a legal starting position; like the top wrestler straddling his opponents feet.


Great point ref. I've seen the same thing this year and it is frustrating to say the least to constantly have cautions slowing up matches.

I've seen a lot of refs like you said get over concerned with the sequence and the kid is straddling the legs or putting his elbow covered arm way infront of the bottom guy.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: Old Number Nine on February 24, 2010, 08:59:42 AM
The rule as it stands now is really no better than it was before, it's the confusion that is leading to all the cautions.  The simple thing to do would be to start the way a track evet is started.  Once the hand is on the elbow, the Ref waits an indeterminate period of time (which should be different every time) and then blows the whistle.
Title: Re: Cautions
Post by: The Du on February 25, 2010, 04:04:26 AM
i agree No. 9.

they should have to wait for the whistle.

as it stands now, the whistle is assumed (by everyone) to come at an almost predetermined interval. i think they should really reinforce that concept, as simple as it sounds.