The Open Mat Forum

Wrestling => High School & Lower => Topic started by: Jtm on July 12, 2017, 09:45:55 PM

Title: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: Jtm on July 12, 2017, 09:45:55 PM
Recently, much written here and elsewhere about the participation decline in high school wrestling (boys).  Here's what the data looks like at the state level.




(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAyBAAAAJDZkMThmMDA1LTM1OGMtNGRhNC1hYjU4LTgyZjM4ODVlNmI3Ng.jpg)


(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAzjAAAAJDFjMzdiYzYxLTMxN2ItNDVjNC05NzkxLWFhYjU5YmU5YjU2Mg.jpg)


Original post. (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/which-states-have-experienced-decline-hs-wrestling-most-jack-moses)
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: ViseGrip on July 19, 2017, 11:31:03 AM
Look at Texas. Its my understanding that there are more high school wrestling teams in just the Houston area than in the entire state of Oklahoma. The University of Texas has what is probably the highest athletic budget in the nation.  If ever there was a university ripe for adding college wrestling it is UT.

But dont count on it.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: OkieSpladle on July 24, 2017, 06:32:27 PM
Interesting data.

Drops of 10-20% in a given state speak to serious problems and some of the best wrestling states historically are included.  National trends are important, but looking at state and local areas might be more actionable.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on September 10, 2017, 03:38:50 AM
I skimmed the TIME article about the business side of youth sports. Then, came home to see if anything on google news accompanied the article. There were a handful of articles that state youth sports participation is on the decline across the board:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/recruiting-insider/wp/2017/09/06/youth-sports-study-declining-participation-rising-costs-and-unqualified-coaches/?utm_term=.f19b9597f9fe

"Almost 45 percent of children ages 6 to 12 played a team sport regularly in 2008, according to Aspen data. Now only about 37 percent of children do."

Reasons given: skyrocketing costs, sport specialization and coaches needing training, and youth sports is in the midst of a crisis.



http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2017/08/31/the-big-business-of-youth-sports

"Across the nation, kids of all skill levels, in virtually every team sport, are getting swept up by a youth-sports economy that increasingly resembles the pros at increasingly early ages. Neighborhood Little Leagues, town soccer associations and church basketball squads that bonded kids in a community--and didn't cost as much as a rent check--have largely lost their luster. Little League participation, for example, is down 20% from its turn-of-the-century peak. These local leagues have been nudged aside by private club teams, a loosely governed constellation that includes everything from development academies affiliated with professional sports franchises to regional squads run by moonlighting coaches with little experience."

"Changing The Game Project: The Adultification of Youth Sports — "Youth sports has become less a tool to educate children about sport and life, and more often a place where parents go to be entertained by their kids. They pay good money, add a great deal of chaos to their lives, and spend their valuable time travelling far and wide watching their kids play sports. When the product they see on the field does not live up to their perceived notion of the value of their investment, they get upset at the kids, the coaches, and at the schools and clubs. They want their moneys worth. They want to be entertained. But at what cost?"


http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/parenting/ct-travel-youth-sports-spending-20170907-story.html

"One parent said she and her husband spend 30 weekends a year on the road playing baseball. The reason? So their children can play against other elite athletes around the country — better than they could find locally. And so they can make sure he gets a college scholarship.

“It’s so competitive,” one Virginia-based parent said, “and if you don’t keep up with what someone else is doing, you’re going to fall behind.”


Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on September 10, 2017, 03:41:43 AM


I just wanted to highlight this part:  "And so they can make sure he gets a college scholarship." 

How many kids were pushed by parents into sports not to be a part of a team, be social, learn a skill, and get a sense of teamwork....but rather to invest in the hopes of lowering their children(s) college costs?
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on September 10, 2017, 03:57:32 AM
Anecdotal from me:

I'm a coach.  I've been a coach as a volunteer, as part of my teaching responsibilities, and as a job.  I was never a jock. I don't watch sportscenter. I have no idea who won the last NBA finals or World Series. I just have enjoyed coaching and have seen sports as an extension of education (like art, music, etc.).

This weekend, we received the "Grade 4 & 5 travel soccer sign-ups" email from my kid's school.

I asked my son if he wanted to join. Now, this is a kid that plays tennis on a regular basis and has asked to sign up for the intramural soccer and basketball league at school since he was in kindergarten.  However, he said he didn't want to sign up for the travel team because he said "It's too stressful."

In essence, it's not fun any longer.  I wonder what kind of pressure was being put on 9 year olds.  I did not push the issue, but he was adamant that he does not want to be on the school's travel team.

The day after this conversation, he asked if we could drive to my work (I work at a sports academy) and if the two of us could run on the track together and play dodgeball against each other.

He clearly wants to be healthy and active, but also understands that you don't have to be on a youth league to do so.




Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on September 10, 2017, 04:21:57 AM
The HBO "Real Sports" piece that is mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ATwFkYpVys&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: ctc on September 10, 2017, 08:10:03 AM
America is raising snowflakes - Generation Weenie.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: Bob H. on September 10, 2017, 09:25:46 AM
it sounds like a lot of "stage moms" (and dads) are getting into sports and trying to relive their lives through their kids.  It also seems like many of them are spending more money on youth sports than they could save with a full ride scholarship.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on September 10, 2017, 01:36:21 PM
It also seems like many of them are spending more money on youth sports than they could save with a full ride scholarship.

This stuck out to me as well
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: AMorris on September 24, 2017, 08:11:09 PM
Hard to say what this graphic shows when the scale is note proportional on the horizontal axis.



Recently, much written here and elsewhere about the participation decline in high school wrestling (boys).  Here's what the data looks like at the state level.




(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAyBAAAAJDZkMThmMDA1LTM1OGMtNGRhNC1hYjU4LTgyZjM4ODVlNmI3Ng.jpg)


(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAzjAAAAJDFjMzdiYzYxLTMxN2ItNDVjNC05NzkxLWFhYjU5YmU5YjU2Mg.jpg)


Original post. (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/which-states-have-experienced-decline-hs-wrestling-most-jack-moses)
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: FalconWrestlingKY on September 29, 2017, 06:17:24 AM
I started a discussion similar to this on Kentucky's Wrestling website and I'm linking to it because I graphed some numbers in Kentucky concerning the decline. Per my trend line by 2019 only 40% of high school teams in Kentucky will send 10 or more kids to postseason tournaments.

http://forums.kentuckywrestling.com/index.php?/topic/15653-program-health/
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on January 18, 2018, 02:26:01 AM
https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/sports/columnists/2018/01/16/heiser-participation-down-forfeits-up-high-school-wrestling-searches-solutions/1037804001/

"The National Wrestling Coaches Association reports that the average size of a high school wrestling roster has decreased from 37 to 23 in the last six years and that 29 percent of high school dual-meet matches now result in forfeits. In addition, high school boys’ participation in wrestling — which ranks seventh among high school sports — has dropped six straight years."
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: FalconWrestlingKY on January 19, 2018, 07:25:40 AM
At our City Championships the issue of numbers were brought up by the other coaches. For context most of the powers in the city have declined to the point there are really only two successful programs left ours and one of the major private schools. We also recently two programs this past year, one of which was a long time state powerhouse that fell apart in the past five years after a coaching change.

In the meeting the coaches from all the lesser programs were offering short sighted solutions that didn't actually fix anything such as having joint practices to shore up numbers with the claim that it's the only way to get their program better which is the only thing that will draw in more kids. I issued private commentary to several coaches I know that in my opinion that would frankly do jack s**** in getting their programs better. The bigger issue I have seen are coaches who don't recruit, don't try and bring in assistants, aren't good at developing talent, don't try and set up feeder programs, and then sit and complain when things don't go there way and claim ridiculous things like our school is successful because we "have money" which is so insanely not true that myself and another coach burst out laughing when they told us this.

A lack of competent coaching is what's hurting Kentucky at the very least
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: OkieSpladle on January 19, 2018, 05:11:58 PM
https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/sports/columnists/2018/01/16/heiser-participation-down-forfeits-up-high-school-wrestling-searches-solutions/1037804001/

"The National Wrestling Coaches Association reports that the average size of a high school wrestling roster has decreased from 37 to 23 in the last six years and that 29 percent of high school dual-meet matches now result in forfeits. In addition, high school boys’ participation in wrestling — which ranks seventh among high school sports — has dropped six straight years."

This is one of those insidiously wrong factoids that just won't die. The drop in roster size from 37 to 23 is from 1975 to today, not in the last six years (you can check yourself here (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/ParticipationStatics.aspx/). Most of the loss in roster size had been due to a growing number of programs while the number of participants stayed mostly flat. For example, in 1971-72, there were 7587 HS wrestling teams with 265.039 wrestlers. By 2016-17, there were 10,629 HS wrestling teams for 244,804 athletes. We had 273,732 wrestlers in 2010-11 before the latest slide began, though it is difficult to tell if this is a serious issue or just a downcycle.  There are many up and downturns in the popularity of the sport throughout the data which clouds the issue. Certainly, there are changes that can be made to help, but it appears having more teams than the wrestling population can support in some areas is one of the problems here.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: ctc on January 21, 2018, 08:37:49 AM
but it appears having more teams than the wrestling population can support in some areas is one of the problems here.
Not buying this.  If a person goes into a tiny Oklahoma town (or any tiny town for that matter - I know so many small towns in Oklahoma have excellent participation), they are not having an effect on a program somewhere else.  It is making wrestling available over a larger percentage of the country.  A program in Duncan is not detrimental to a program in Lawton.  (I am from Texas and am aware of the situation in Oklahoma.  In Texas, each high school that adds wrestling does not diminish from the next high school that already has wrestling.  Each high school is their own isolated "world" and growth or failure is contingent upon what happens within that high school.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: Jtm on February 05, 2018, 09:47:55 PM

The graph is intended to show decrease in participation by state. The horizontal scale isn't relevant; it's log just to spread out the data.

Hard to say what this graphic shows when the scale is note proportional on the horizontal axis.



Recently, much written here and elsewhere about the participation decline in high school wrestling (boys).  Here's what the data looks like at the state level.




(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAyBAAAAJDZkMThmMDA1LTM1OGMtNGRhNC1hYjU4LTgyZjM4ODVlNmI3Ng.jpg)


(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAzjAAAAJDFjMzdiYzYxLTMxN2ItNDVjNC05NzkxLWFhYjU5YmU5YjU2Mg.jpg)


Original post. (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/which-states-have-experienced-decline-hs-wrestling-most-jack-moses)
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: Jtm on February 05, 2018, 11:06:40 PM

According to the NFHS data (boys only), Texas and Oklahoma ranked #1 and #2, respectively, in number of wrestlers added from 2010/11 to 2015/16.  In contrast, nine states experienced a participation decline of more than 14%.  Both Washington and Oregon participation declined by nearly 21% over the period.

but it appears having more teams than the wrestling population can support in some areas is one of the problems here.
Not buying this.  If a person goes into a tiny Oklahoma town (or any tiny town for that matter - I know so many small towns in Oklahoma have excellent participation), they are not having an effect on a program somewhere else.  It is making wrestling available over a larger percentage of the country.  A program in Duncan is not detrimental to a program in Lawton.  (I am from Texas and am aware of the situation in Oklahoma.  In Texas, each high school that adds wrestling does not diminish from the next high school that already has wrestling.  Each high school is their own isolated "world" and growth or failure is contingent upon what happens within that high school.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: Jtm on February 05, 2018, 11:21:18 PM

Without reference to the NWCA, the NFHS data (boys only) shows sequential participation declines for six years starting in 2010/11. During that same period, overall sports participation is flat to slightly up, so wrestling is losing share according to the data.  Also, over the same period the average roster size declined from 26.3 in 2010/11 to 23.0 in 2016/17.  Whether any of this is statistically meaningful is beyond my pay grade.



https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/sports/columnists/2018/01/16/heiser-participation-down-forfeits-up-high-school-wrestling-searches-solutions/1037804001/ (https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/sports/columnists/2018/01/16/heiser-participation-down-forfeits-up-high-school-wrestling-searches-solutions/1037804001/)

"The National Wrestling Coaches Association reports that the average size of a high school wrestling roster has decreased from 37 to 23 in the last six years and that 29 percent of high school dual-meet matches now result in forfeits. In addition, high school boys’ participation in wrestling — which ranks seventh among high school sports — has dropped six straight years."

This is one of those insidiously wrong factoids that just won't die. The drop in roster size from 37 to 23 is from 1975 to today, not in the last six years (you can check yourself here (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/ParticipationStatics.aspx/ (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/ParticipationStatics.aspx/)). Most of the loss in roster size had been due to a growing number of programs while the number of participants stayed mostly flat. For example, in 1971-72, there were 7587 HS wrestling teams with 265.039 wrestlers. By 2016-17, there were 10,629 HS wrestling teams for 244,804 athletes. We had 273,732 wrestlers in 2010-11 before the latest slide began, though it is difficult to tell if this is a serious issue or just a downcycle.  There are many up and downturns in the popularity of the sport throughout the data which clouds the issue. Certainly, there are changes that can be made to help, but it appears having more teams than the wrestling population can support in some areas is one of the problems here.
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: Jtm on March 13, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Link to the NWCA survey regarding declining high school participation in wrestling. If you want to offer an opinion, here's a link to the survey (https://mailchi.mp/nwca/we-need-your-help-please-fill-out-this-youth-sports-survey-329241).





Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: a guest on March 16, 2018, 08:24:30 AM
Survey completed
Title: Re: More on High School Participation Decline -- State Level Numbers
Post by: ViseGrip on July 31, 2018, 03:35:21 PM
I do think it looks bad when a dual has 3 or more forfeits. I think we have too many HS weights. I also think it makes sense for some smaller school classifications to have fewer weight classes.