The Open Mat Forum

Miscellaneous => Polls => Topic started by: Cougar1 on August 22, 2009, 01:36:01 PM

Title: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Cougar1 on August 22, 2009, 01:36:01 PM
OK, boys and girls, have at it.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: LoSt on August 23, 2009, 03:45:48 AM
While certainly the more socialist the government the more personal freedoms tend to be restricted, I think that the fact that the majority of  democracies in the world are significantly more socialistic then America would tell you that yes, they can in fact co-exist.

Unless you think all of western Europe is socially repressed.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: LoSt on August 23, 2009, 03:48:28 AM
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Cougar1 on August 23, 2009, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 23, 2009, 10:45:00 AM
Quote from: "Cougar1"
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.

That is truly hillarious that someone could make that statement.  Absolutely asinine really. :roll:

Name one single freedom that has been limited by anything the Obama administration has done in even the slightest manner?

Here is what the Bush Adminstration perpetrated the American population:

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf (http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf)

What’s in the Patriot Act?

Expands terrorism laws to include “domestic terrorism” which could subject political organizations to surveillance, wiretapping, harassment, and criminal action for political advocacy.
Expands the ability of law enforcement to conduct secret searches, gives them wide powers of phone and Internet surveillance, and access to highly personal medical, financial, mental health, and student records with minimal judicial oversight.
Allows FBI Agents to investigate American citizens for criminal matters without probable cause of crime if they say it is for “intelligence purposes.”
Permits non-citizens to be jailed based on mere suspicion and to be denied re-admission to the US for engaging in free speech.
Suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitely in six month increments without meaningful judicial review.

What Rights are threatened by the Patriot Act?

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Jimmy the Gent on August 23, 2009, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: "coachsparky"
Quote from: "Cougar1"
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.

That is truly hillarious that someone could make that statement.  Absolutely asinine really. :roll:

Name one single freedom that has been limited by anything the Obama administration has done in even the slightest manner?

Here is what the Bush Adminstration perpetrated the American population:

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf (http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf)

What’s in the Patriot Act?

Expands terrorism laws to include “domestic terrorism” which could subject political organizations to surveillance, wiretapping, harassment, and criminal action for political advocacy.
Expands the ability of law enforcement to conduct secret searches, gives them wide powers of phone and Internet surveillance, and access to highly personal medical, financial, mental health, and student records with minimal judicial oversight.
Allows FBI Agents to investigate American citizens for criminal matters without probable cause of crime if they say it is for “intelligence purposes.”
Permits non-citizens to be jailed based on mere suspicion and to be denied re-admission to the US for engaging in free speech.
Suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitely in six month increments without meaningful judicial review.

What Rights are threatened by the Patriot Act?

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.

and they all still exist because Obama hasn't changed any of the provisions in Bush's patriot act.  He is the President of the United States with majorities in Congress and he keeps Bush Policies in tact.  Obama and his puppetmasters agree with the patriot act.

What does that tell you sparky?  LOL!!
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 23, 2009, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: "Jimmy the Gent"
Quote from: "coachsparky"
Quote from: "Cougar1"
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.

That is truly hillarious that someone could make that statement.  Absolutely asinine really. :roll:

Name one single freedom that has been limited by anything the Obama administration has done in even the slightest manner?

Here is what the Bush Adminstration perpetrated the American population:

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf (http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf)

What’s in the Patriot Act?

Expands terrorism laws to include “domestic terrorism” which could subject political organizations to surveillance, wiretapping, harassment, and criminal action for political advocacy.
Expands the ability of law enforcement to conduct secret searches, gives them wide powers of phone and Internet surveillance, and access to highly personal medical, financial, mental health, and student records with minimal judicial oversight.
Allows FBI Agents to investigate American citizens for criminal matters without probable cause of crime if they say it is for “intelligence purposes.”
Permits non-citizens to be jailed based on mere suspicion and to be denied re-admission to the US for engaging in free speech.
Suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitely in six month increments without meaningful judicial review.

What Rights are threatened by the Patriot Act?

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.

and they all still exist because Obama hasn't changed any of the provisions in Bush's patriot act.  He is the President of the United States with majorities in Congress and he keeps Bush Policies in tact.  Obama and his puppetmasters agree with the patriot act.

What does that tell you sparky?  LOL!!


Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Jimmy the Gent on August 23, 2009, 12:17:39 PM
so are you admitting that Bush was not responsible for the Patriot Act?
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Black-n-Red on August 23, 2009, 12:24:14 PM
CoachSparky wrote:
Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress

CoachSparky, while that is true on its face, it is kind of disingenuous because if Obama really wanted to make it a priority, his Administration could certainly lean on some Democratic members of Congress to address the issue.  They haven't.

Jimmy, there could be a variety of reasons he hasn't.  One, he has other pressing issues that he doesn't want to see get sidetracked (gee, what issue could that be right now?....)  Two, maybe he doesn't see the Patriot Act as being that threatening to personal freedoms.....which obviously supports your argument.

I'm gonna go with Option 2 with a dose of Option 1 mixed in.....
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Jimmy the Gent on August 23, 2009, 12:59:43 PM
I am still waiting for sparky to admit that Bush wasn't responsible for the Patriot Act, as presidents to not make or eliminate Acts.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 24, 2009, 08:02:20 AM
Quote from: "Jimmy the Gent"
I am still waiting for sparky to admit that Bush wasn't responsible for the Patriot Act, as presidents to not make or eliminate Acts.
 Actually, it was the Bush administration that was responsible for the Patriot Act.  That is what I have always said, I never said it was the moron Bush who was responsible personally.

http://www.ala.org/ala/aboutala/offices ... ibrary.cfm (http://www.ala.org/ala/aboutala/offices/oif/ifissues/usapatriotactlibrary.cfm)

The legislation originated with Attorney General John Ashcroft, who asked Congress for additional powers that he claimed were needed to fight terrorism in the wake of the events of September 11, 2001. Few amendments were made to Ashcroft’s initial proposal to Congress, and the bill became law without any hearings or markup by a Congressional committee.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Viratas on August 24, 2009, 08:06:35 AM
That is just dumb and makes you look silly, when your side does it blah blah, in the end the congress signed off sparky.

Your hypocracy is astounding.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 24, 2009, 08:07:08 AM
Quote from: "Black-n-Red"
CoachSparky wrote:
Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress

CoachSparky, while that is true on its face, it is kind of disingenuous because if Obama really wanted to make it a priority, his Administration could certainly lean on some Democratic members of Congress to address the issue.  They haven't.

Jimmy, there could be a variety of reasons he hasn't.  One, he has other pressing issues that he doesn't want to see get sidetracked (gee, what issue could that be right now?....)  Two, maybe he doesn't see the Patriot Act as being that threatening to personal freedoms.....which obviously supports your argument.

I'm gonna go with Option 2 with a dose of Option 1 mixed in.....

BnR, I wouls go with Option 1, with a little sprinkling of Option 2.  Yes, I know he could definitely lobby to have it removed now, but he definitely has more pressing issues he is working on and does not want to detract from at this time.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 24, 2009, 08:09:38 AM
Quote from: "Viratas"
That is just dumb and makes you look silly, when your side does it blah blah, in the end the congress signed off sparky.

Your hypocracy is astounding.

No hypocrisy at all V.  You cannot name one time I blamed something on congress that was the Obama administrations’ fault.  Come on V, you are losing it more and more every day.  Things not going so well in your personal life or what?
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Viratas on August 24, 2009, 08:15:30 AM
Your weak comeback alone proves my point, Carry on with your asinine comments.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 24, 2009, 08:24:23 AM
Quote from: "Viratas"
Your weak comeback alone proves my point, Carry on with your asinine comments.

Seriously now V, you are completely losing it.  Is there anything I can do to help?  My lord you are going off the deep end!
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 24, 2009, 08:25:48 AM
Quote from: "Viratas"
Your weak comeback alone proves my point, Carry on with your asinine comments.

I simply asked you to provide one example of me being a hypocrit, and this is the best you can do.  Come on now lets be truthful about who has the weak comeback here!
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Viratas on August 24, 2009, 08:47:28 AM
Quote
Actually, it was the Bush administration that was responsible for the Patriot Act.

After you said this

Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress.

But you are so clueless as to think that a Presidential Admin makes law? Welcome to Civics 101 according to Sparky..

I am stamping your comments on this thread as:

(http://http://www.deviantart.com/download/79817143/Trolls_Amuse_Me_stamp_by_mari_chan.jpg)
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: The Du on August 24, 2009, 08:53:24 AM
i know this isn't the arena that you guys are intending to discuss but...

on a small scale i think you could definitely retain person freedoms in a socialist environment, and as an example, i think you can look at small 'collectives' or 'alternative communities'

i think you guys are talking about more of a large scale society or socialism as a economic system across a whole nation, but as an example, i think you could look at these sitautions as a microcosm of how they 'could' work.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Jimmy the Gent on August 24, 2009, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: "Viratas"
Quote
Actually, it was the Bush administration that was responsible for the Patriot Act.

After you said this

Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress.

But you are so clueless as to think that a Presidential Admin makes law? Welcome to Civics 101 according to Sparky..

I am stamping your comments on this thread as:

(http://http://www.deviantart.com/download/79817143/Trolls_Amuse_Me_stamp_by_mari_chan.jpg)

HAHA nice PWNAGE on Sparky.  He is chasing his tail... is it congress or administrations that make and eliminate Acts Sparky.

He wants his cake
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: ac1998 on August 24, 2009, 10:23:43 AM
The faults with the Patriot Act fall pretty equally on both parties.  There is no doubt that it was a proposal of the Bush Administration and borught to the floor by a republican controlled congress, but the bill had nearly unanimous bi-partisan support.  The Dems in the senate could have blocked passage but they went along.  Only one senator voted against the Act, Democrat Russ Feingold.  It passed the Senate 98-1.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Viratas on August 24, 2009, 10:25:43 AM
Quote from: "ac1998"
The faults with the Patriot Act fall pretty equally on both parties.  There is no doubt that it was a proposal of the Bush Administration and borught to the floor by a republican controlled congress, but the bill had nearly unanimous bi-partisan support.  The Dems in the senate could have blocked passage but they went along.  Only one senator voted against the Act, Democrat Russ Feingold.  It passed the Senate 98-1.

Thanks AC and well stated.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: ViseGrip on August 24, 2009, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: "The Du"
i know this isn't the arena that you guys are intending to discuss but...

on a small scale i think you could definitely retain person freedoms in a socialist environment, and as an example, i think you can look at small 'collectives' or 'alternative communities'

i think you guys are talking about more of a large scale society or socialism as a economic system across a whole nation, but as an example, i think you could look at these sitautions as a microcosm of how they 'could' work.

In theory I would agree with you. But in practice, socialist governments have used their powers to restrict or control personal freedoms without exception.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 25, 2009, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: "Jimmy the Gent"
Quote from: "Viratas"
Quote
Actually, it was the Bush administration that was responsible for the Patriot Act.

After you said this

Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress.

But you are so clueless as to think that a Presidential Admin makes law? Welcome to Civics 101 according to Sparky..

I am stamping your comments on this thread as:

(http://http://www.deviantart.com/download/79817143/Trolls_Amuse_Me_stamp_by_mari_chan.jpg)

HAHA nice PWNAGE on Sparky.  He is chasing his tail... is it congress or administrations that make and eliminate Acts Sparky.

He wants his cake


Jimmy, another political science lesson for you.  I repeat myself, but only congress makes and eliminates laws.  However, adminsitration, lobbying groups and/or congress itself could be responsible for the acts because they initiate it or promote it, but they do not make or eliminate the laws.  You have to look at who promoted its passage from day one as to who is res responsible for it.  Of courst that is probably a little more honesty than most of you can take, being the right wingers and favoring dishonesty as you all do.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Viratas on August 25, 2009, 09:44:36 PM
Does congress have to vote it up or down? Yes or No answer please!
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 25, 2009, 09:49:09 PM
Quote from: "Viratas"
Quote from: "ac1998"
The faults with the Patriot Act fall pretty equally on both parties.  There is no doubt that it was a proposal of the Bush Administration and borught to the floor by a republican controlled congress, but the bill had nearly unanimous bi-partisan support.  The Dems in the senate could have blocked passage but they went along.  Only one senator voted against the Act, Democrat Russ Feingold.  It passed the Senate 98-1.

Thanks AC and well stated.

I will not deny that the senators and congressmen who should have known better than to bow to the will of the adnministration and the frightened sheep of the public listening to the adminstrations lies bare some of the responsibility as well.  At the time of passage I told everyone that it brought to mind the Benjamin Franklin quote about those giving up liberties for security deserve neither the liberties or the security.  Of course almost all of you disagreed with me.  Surprise surpirse!
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 25, 2009, 09:56:23 PM
Quote from: "Viratas"
Does congress have to vote it up or down? Yes or No answer please!


Of course they do V, I have never said they did not.  Unfortunately they sometimes bow to will of an evil dishonest adminstration and the whims of the US public instead of good judgement.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 25, 2009, 09:58:36 PM
.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: Viratas on August 25, 2009, 10:00:17 PM
Simple Yes or No was all that was asked. As we tell our children "No if, ands or buts"
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: coachsparky on August 25, 2009, 10:10:07 PM
Quote from: "Viratas"
Simple Yes or No was all that was asked. As we tell our children "No if, ands or buts"


I answered it accurately clearly and unequivocally for any intelligent communicant.
Title: Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
Post by: royboy on August 26, 2009, 12:32:20 AM
I answered no.