Author Topic: .....and we're still waiting  (Read 15284 times)

Offline fuhr

  • LXP
  • Global Moderator
  • Get a Job
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
    • View Profile
.....and we're still waiting
« on: February 08, 2012, 10:09:38 AM »

Let's just wait until the rest of the puzzle comes together before lining up to find problems with it.

I'm not trying to be glib, but after years and years of covering wrestling, dealing with message boards, etc., I'm just become a bit jaded about knee-jerk reactions to something new in our sport. It's not intentional and it's surely not directed to be snarky.

Fuhr, I wasn't inferring to blindly follow ... but more or less ... wait and see. There's a lot of good that can (and will) come out of this concept. I couldn't share what I knew prior to the story coming out because it was told to me in confidence. When Andy mentioned it in his notebook, I posted the link here.

I'm sure you guys get tired of my tendency to get all soapboxish, and that is really never my intent when I start a post, but let's just sit back and wait for some more news about this new format.

I know a lot about the new format, but there's also a lot I don't know and a lot I'm not able to explain because it was given in confidence.

Let's just take a deep breath and think about what good this can bring to the sport. (That deep breath is for myself as well).

Now, let's talk about the positive things this can do? Potential regional sites, potential conference and regional matchups ... where can this lead us as a sport!


Can't begin to wrap my head around how badly the NWCA has dropped the ball on what they say they are doing to build an event for the fans. The promotion for Mat Mayhem is a joke.  People who FOLLOW the sport don't know what's going on.  That will build new fans.


Concept is there, but this is a joke.


Split the seasons, dual and tournament, with ACTUAL  (not making sure teams are split up) regionals and have the finals in an ANNOUNCED set site.  I say Chicago every year.  Every knows, and can plan around it. 

  Trying to help cover the event for TOM and I don't even know if it is possible because it might be in Oklahoma, Minnesota, or if you believe J from the post Iowa dual press, Iowa.  That's easy to plan out for people.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 10:13:50 AM by fuhr »
Since Jammen has told me twice to change my signature, I can only assume his wrestling knowledge is no longer something I can count on along with pizza and beer.

Offline brycemus

  • LXP
  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 32402
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 10:13:33 AM »
this seems like it was created out of a drunk frat boys mind at 3:00 am in a Denny's restaraunt.  "ok guys here's what we're going to do, we're actually going to have a National Dual Championship with regionals and everything."  pause for everyone to nod their head.  "And then just to screw over everyone who would actually like to attend if they were given Any advance notice of where the finals are to be held, ie like basketball, we're not going to announce the finals location until the week before".  and because all of his buddies are drunk frat guys at Denny's at 3:00 am, they think this too is a great idea and nod along with it as well.

once again a good idea is ruined by a half assed not thought out one at all.  as to the promotion...???  anyone see a whole of "promoting" going on?  my wife's Derby team promotes more than this and they pull in like 175 people for a bout.  these guys expect 10,000 plus ???

Fail!
Corey Clark: 2016-2017 Hawkeye Hammer

Offline OkieSpladle

  • LXP
  • I Need More Hobbies
  • *****
  • Posts: 3803
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 10:21:53 AM »
I saw a post elsewhere that Oklahoma State, Minnesota and Missouri had bid to host.  I'm assuming they are waiting to make sure those teams survive to the Final Four before making the call.  This is what we were concerned about at the start and now, here it is.

Offline fuhr

  • LXP
  • Global Moderator
  • Get a Job
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 10:36:04 AM »
It shouldn't matter if the host school is in or not if they want to build this as a brand and an event. 
Since Jammen has told me twice to change my signature, I can only assume his wrestling knowledge is no longer something I can count on along with pizza and beer.

Offline brycemus

  • LXP
  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 32402
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 10:42:20 AM »
exactly.  it's going to turn into home court advantage basically.  which I'm fine with.  hell if Iowa had a shot and they were the #1 team and got the bid I'd sure as hell prefer to make everyone show up at Carver.  but it's ridiculous from a scheduling standpoint for fans!  how am I supposed to ask for time off work, make travel arrangements, kiss up to my spouse, and get a hotel etc for this when I have no freaking clue where the hell it's going to be.  A neutral offsite, ie Indy, Chicago, St Louis, for craps sake I'd go to San Antonio, Las Vegas, ANYWHERE if I were given a heads up about it.
Corey Clark: 2016-2017 Hawkeye Hammer

Offline buf87

  • DI
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 10:42:55 AM »
UNI is the only school that said they will host if they are in the tourney or not.  The other 3 will only host the finals if they are in the tourney, if they are not in, they don't want to host.  Let it be in UNI!

Offline fuhr

  • LXP
  • Global Moderator
  • Get a Job
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 10:45:20 AM »
UNI is the only school that said they will host if they are in the tourney or not.  The other 3 will only host the finals if they are in the tourney, if they are not in, they don't want to host.  Let it be in UNI!


I know that NW would host regardless if they are in it or not.  NW makes great sense with Chicago's location, transportation, and lodging.  But that's a discussion for the future.  In the now we get to bemoan how badly this ball got fumbled and the fact that it is still bouncing around with no one picking it up. 
Since Jammen has told me twice to change my signature, I can only assume his wrestling knowledge is no longer something I can count on along with pizza and beer.

Offline ronsnap

  • All-American
  • ****
  • Posts: 994
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 10:46:47 AM »
This whole thing is a joke.  Right down to the teams participating.  How many of those teams actually desrve to be in this tournament this year? 

Not knowing where finals will be held in ELEVEN days is a complete joke.  What if I wanted to buy a plane ticket to attend?  What if I needed to arrange for a day or days off of work?  What if I had kids and they needed to plan around school? 

Why is it even being held on two different weekends?  So we can spend even more money?  If I've got to travel far enough that I've got to stay a night in a hotel I'm not going.  I need that money for St. Louis.  Then to ask people to do that twice!!!  Is there some reason that this cannot be held all on one weekend at one location? 

Could've seen this coming from a mile away.  I hope they go back to the drawing table before next years tournament. 

BTW, the current format shrinks our conference schedule and places a "national" tournament right before the post season starts.  Great scheduling.
"I like to relax with a chainsaw." Tom Brands 12-4-09

Proud member of the UNI Faithful 100!  Through thick and thin!

Offline Jason Bryant

  • Global Moderator
  • World Champ
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
  • Thou shalt not fist to the back
    • View Profile
    • http://www.mattalkonline.com
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 11:18:41 AM »
I'm gathering everyone wants an announced set location. Remember, this event is about showing the NCAA there is value in a dual meet championship, but in large, a lot of teams are looking out for their own program first, rather than the sport first. Sometimes, that's ok, sometimes it isn't.

So let's use this hypothetical.
Site is set well in advance: The "host" team doesn't make the final four. Do you want fans in the stands at a host on short notice, or do you want no one in the stands when the home draw was eliminated the previous weekend.

How empty would the Pavilion be if the Gopher's didn't make it? How empty would Gallagher-Iba be if there were no Cowboys.

I'm not saying I'm agreeing with everything that's happened, but I think everyone's being extremely shortsighted when calling everything that happens in wrestling "a joke."

There are valid concerns out there, but it seems like the lion's share of people want a National Dual championship. Right now, it's the concept that needs to show through, not the actual practice. There needs to be a relevant regional draw.

So what would you rather have? A few fans uncomfortable about being unable to attend and a few thousand fans to show the NCAA that this is a winner OR a set site like Columbia, Mo. and no Mizzou to draw in the local crowd and you might be lucky to get 500 people?

Chicken or the Egg.

Should this work moving forward, there will be a lot of changes. First and foremost, qualifying. If it's got NCAA backing, then you open it up to better bid cities, more TV, etc.

Ron, the scheduling is a product of the problem, coaches unwilling to be on the same page for the betterment of the entire sport. Cael's recent interview said he disagreed with several things about it, but instead of just saying he didn't think it was good for his program, he validated that with REAL reasons, rather than the entire scheduling argument. His main point was about going to areas that need assistance in promoting college wrestling. In this case, Utah, where he's from.

And if people think the NWCA is just going to sit on this and not adapt, they're sorely mistaken. The issue is cooperation from their member coaches more than anything else.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -- Mitch Hedberg

Offline brycemus

  • LXP
  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: 32402
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 11:21:12 AM »
it's another one of those "ready, fire, aim" policies.

I LOVE the Idea!!!

I HATE the execution.

it's a huge financial issue for the average fan.  whether or not the Iowa Hawkeyes made it, if I'm anticipating them being in the finals at some location I know about in advance I'm going to have all my travel arrangements made (tickets etc).  and guess what if the Hawks didn't make it, because I did have all those planned out I would be there!

if people know in advance you WILL have the draw of the crowd.  I think NOT knowing screws the other teams that make it to the finals, but are not the host.  how are Their fans supposed to get there?
Corey Clark: 2016-2017 Hawkeye Hammer

Offline fulsaasfan

  • World Silver
  • *****
  • Posts: 2268
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 11:24:22 AM »
I think that my biggest issue with the whole thing is that we have no idea where the finals will be held. That will hurt the numbers for the finals (and possibly regionals.) I have thought about going to Ames this weekend but am dragging my feet because I would really like to go to the finals if possible and can't really do both. If the finals are in Iowa or maybe even Minnesota then I could probably still make finals but I would have to scramble to do it. If they say next week that they are in Oklahoma then I can't make that happen on suck short notice.

So, I'll probably skip this weekend in hopes of going to the finals and then when they are down south I won't be able to go to that either and they just lost another person for BOTH events. That is not how you grow a sport!!

The whole thing of having it all on the same weekend sounds good in theory but kind of defeats the whole purpose of the event too. They want to create that seperate finals four atmosphere and make it it's own big to do. I understand that concept and like what they are trying to do. If you do it the same weekend then you might as well go back to the old format and the "Final four" would just be the semis and finals...

Offline fuhr

  • LXP
  • Global Moderator
  • Get a Job
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 11:37:10 AM »
If you're considering putting it in a venue that won't draw unless there is a regional draw, eliminate that venue.  Problem solved.  Yep, easier said than done, that's why a set site every year makes sense.  We always know where it will be regardless of teams, and the people whose squads make it can make the trip. 





Since Jammen has told me twice to change my signature, I can only assume his wrestling knowledge is no longer something I can count on along with pizza and beer.

Offline AFHawk86

  • National Champ
  • ****
  • Posts: 1187
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 11:40:09 AM »
This was previously brought up, but why not have the finals at a set, somewhat neutral location.  Chicago was mentioned and that sounds like a great consideration.  It could also be moved around from year to year; maybe St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc.

As far as two weekends is concerned, I would prefer the tournament to be in the "old" format.  However, I understand the desire to regionalize to better allow fans of the "local" teams to participate prior to the finals. 

For next year we need to know this information far in advance (how about shortly after NCAAs) and there needs to be more promotion to include video coverage.  I still don't know if I'll be able to watch the Ames competition this weekend.  Nothing is one their website even mentioning their hosting this regional.  I understand the Rutgers site will provide video, but that's the only one I'm aware of yet.
virtus tentamine gaudet - strength rejoices in the challenge

Offline OkieSpladle

  • LXP
  • I Need More Hobbies
  • *****
  • Posts: 3803
    • View Profile
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 11:42:09 AM »
I understand why they are waiting, but to me it just further shows why this broken up format is not as good as the old format.  Even throwing out how much fun watching the other divisions was, being able to go to one site and watch all (or almost all) of the best teams battle it out over two days is SO much superior to this.  If you strip it down to just D1, you could still easily wrestle the entire tournament in a college arena (2 mats going at once) over 2 days.  You want a sell-out crowd with a great atmosphere?  You'd have it and we could all get there because we'd know where we were going.   

Maybe I'm in the minority on that and if so, thats fine, but so far, I'm not impressed.

Offline Viratas

  • Get a Job
  • *
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
    • View Profile
    • http://theopenmat.com
Re: .....and we're still waiting
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 11:48:08 AM »
I agree with Fuhr.

JB

I see your point, but I think you are missing the point. If the idea is to show the NCAA value in it, then make sure you pick a location that is not weak (Like Cleveland OH) sorry had to.

You are telling me that if it were heald in MN (even if the goofers did nto make it) that people will not show up?" I call BS on that one. Same goes for IA and PA.

This was a EPIC fail plain and simple. There really should be no defending it IMO. Learn and move on.

This has accomplished.

1. Pissing a whole ton of fans off.
2. Make it hard for media outlets like us to even cover the finals.
3. Not having live paid feeds at all the regionals and the finals (you would be able to show viewership, which should help)

Under your logic why is Oklahoma State or Missouri even a consideration. Heck the wrestled eachother a week ago at OSU and barely drew 1000 fans. If this is in OSU, they will be lucky to have 3K total IMO.

If it is in MN even without MN in it they have at least 7-8K. (The whole state of IA will most likely make the drive.)
Aequitas - Veritas (is Latin)
Cóir - Fírinne
Justice - Truth

"When it’s over, I’ll look up and see what remains. If there are any bridges, I’ll cross them when I get there."