Author Topic: New dual meet scoring system?  (Read 4450 times)

Offline spider

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2013, 11:54:08 PM »
What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?" Anyone who can understand match scoring will have no trouble understanding team scoring.
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Offline Rockhard

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2013, 12:59:19 AM »
How would a national Champ like Kellen Russel with all of his 3-2, 4-3 wins fit into a team with this scoring?  Individual 2 X Champ that does produce mounds of team points.

Or would prefer a pinner like little Alton that racks up dual points?

It would force him to wrestle for a pin, rather than wrestle not to lose. Pins should always be rewarded more. The fact its only worth 1pt more than a tech, is absurd.
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Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2013, 09:51:45 PM »
The NCWA has always had the 235-pound weight class, that's not anything new.

It might not be broke, but it's not exactly perfect either. We just do it because "that's the way it's always been done."

I was just a toddler when the NBA incorporated the 3-point line, borrowed from the ABA post-merger. It took the NCAA about nine more years to fully implement the 3-point line. How many more points would Larry Bird have scored in his college career if there was an arc?

Again, the NCWA isn't trying to "change" the way things are done haphazardly, they're using it in select events to develop a concept by putting it into practice when both teams agree to use it. It's been used once this year thus far.

One thing I have noticed with our sport is the FIRST thing we do is try to come up with all the bad things that can happen, rather than looking at potential positives. If the NCWA finds out something that's equitable by trying different concepts, who's going to raise a stink? Some of these programs are varsity, while the vast majority are clubs. It's not going to shake the balance of anything if this league does things differently.

Jim Guinta, the founder of the NCWA, said this in the story coming in the December issue of AWN: "The NCAA is like a battleship, it takes them a long time to change directions. We're like a waterbug, we can change directions when we need to."

If there's any league we should be testing things, it's at the NCWA level. It's not affecting anything with NCAA records, they still compete against NCAA, NAIA and NJCAA schools using the rules of those particular associations. If the NCWA is wrestling's rules sandbox, why would that be a bad thing?

It's not like they're testing new rules when Iowa wrestles Penn State, it's the Apprentice School and PSU-Mont Alto. 90 percent of us couldn't find those schools on the map to start with.
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Offline Rockhard

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2013, 10:00:05 PM »
I would say typically the reason why wrestling doesn't like change, is because change usually is done without much research and they we jump right into it, regardless of opinion from coaches or the public. Almost every major change we've made in our sport is done this way.

However, this change is not. It's being tested with force feeding it to every school.
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Offline OkieSpladle

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2013, 02:24:35 AM »
I think any scoring system where 1 match win is potentially 16 times more valuable than another is too extreme.  You could mitigate that somewhat by giving a win bonus of 5 points or so and then doing this type of scoring (you could also give a pin bonus if you'd rather have more than 1 point seperating a tech and a fall, though I'm ok with that).  This would reduce the extreme emphasis on big wins some while still making every point count and being more rewarding of big wins than our current scoring system.

One point I didn't see addressed, but I assume is noted somewhere, are all techs worth 15?  If you just do point spread you could have a tech worth more than a fall in certain scenarios.

I've long been a proponent of a scoring system that rewards bonus points in 5 point spread increments (1-5 point win, 6-10, 11-15) so that every match is always one big move away from changing the team score even without a fall factoring in, but every system has its downside too.  The system used here isn't my favorite, but its good to see new things being tried and studied.  I do think its interesting that we just had a wide scale debate on what form of competition truly rewards the best team (dual vs tournament), and what the term "best team" even means, and now we're trotting out dual scoring methodologies that would move away from the every weight class matters ethos that dual team champion proponents love.  I like that the two competition scoring methods reward different things somewhat and would go the other way if possible to make them MORE different.

Offline RYou

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2013, 07:16:25 AM »

One point I didn't see addressed, but I assume is noted somewhere, are all techs worth 15?  If you just do point spread you could have a tech worth more than a fall in certain scenarios.

I've long been a proponent of a scoring system that rewards bonus points in 5 point spread increments (1-5 point win, 6-10, 11-15) so that ever

If I read it correctly a bout ends when a 10 point spread is hit , then both wrestlers keep their total points scored.  It just ends the bout early.

Offline OkieSpladle

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2013, 07:28:57 AM »

One point I didn't see addressed, but I assume is noted somewhere, are all techs worth 15?  If you just do point spread you could have a tech worth more than a fall in certain scenarios.

I've long been a proponent of a scoring system that rewards bonus points in 5 point spread increments (1-5 point win, 6-10, 11-15) so that ever

If I read it correctly a bout ends when a 10 point spread is hit , then both wrestlers keep their total points scored.  It just ends the bout early.

I think you're right.  Josh Lambrecht approves.

Offline Jointdoc55

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2013, 08:03:12 AM »
Here's why I dont like it. One team could win say 3 matches really big and lose 7 by small margins and win the dual.

Then again maybe thats not such a bad thing. It would make what are otherwise thought of as good "tournament teams", good "dual teams" as well.
You are right. Similar to tournament scoring, the final outcome will reward teams that have a few studs, as long as the other wrestlers on the team can avoid being pinned.

Offline ctc

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2013, 01:57:00 PM »
What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?" Anyone who can understand match scoring will have no trouble understanding team scoring.
Agreed.  If they want wrestling to be more exciting, learn to start calling "stalling" - way too many snooze-fests allowed.
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Offline matref0

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2013, 08:31:53 PM »
I've worked several NCWA events and everything the do is first class.  Jim G is correct, they can change quickly and aren't afraid to try something different to see what the outcome is.

I find the NCWA very innovative and front leading for the sport of wrestling .

Offline RYou

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2013, 09:28:33 PM »

One point I didn't see addressed, but I assume is noted somewhere, are all techs worth 15?  If you just do point spread you could have a tech worth more than a fall in certain scenarios.

I've long been a proponent of a scoring system that rewards bonus points in 5 point spread increments (1-5 point win, 6-10, 11-15) so that ever

If I read it correctly a bout ends when a 10 point spread is hit , then both wrestlers keep their total points scored.  It just ends the bout early.

LOL +5

I think you're right.  Josh Lambrecht approves.

Offline SingletSlinger

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2013, 07:54:32 PM »
If they would have used this scoring system at Bedlam today the match would have been tied going into the heavyweights. I think this type of scoring will show the difference in winning a match by six points or by one in quadruple overtime.
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Offline ViseGrip

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2013, 08:24:16 PM »

One point I didn't see addressed, but I assume is noted somewhere, are all techs worth 15?  If you just do point spread you could have a tech worth more than a fall in certain scenarios.

I've long been a proponent of a scoring system that rewards bonus points in 5 point spread increments (1-5 point win, 6-10, 11-15) so that ever

If I read it correctly a bout ends when a 10 point spread is hit , then both wrestlers keep their total points scored.  It just ends the bout early.

I think you're right.  Josh Lambrecht approves.
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Offline NDKnowledge

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2013, 11:29:52 PM »
Just to play devil's advocate- I think it could ultimately lead to MORE stalling. Some may wrestle tentatively because they don't want to get pinned and give up 15. Also, someone up 6-8 points in a match might stop wrestling because they're OK with scoring 6-8 team points and afraid to give up 15 via pin if something bad happened in the match.

Offline SingletSlinger

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Re: New dual meet scoring system?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2013, 11:48:00 PM »
Just to play devil's advocate- I think it could ultimately lead to MORE stalling. Some may wrestle tentatively because they don't want to get pinned and give up 15. Also, someone up 6-8 points in a match might stop wrestling because they're OK with scoring 6-8 team points and afraid to give up 15 via pin if something bad happened in the match.
How would that be different than it is now?

If a guy is up 3-6(6 points depending upon position) they are going to stall and not look for the major, instead with the new scoring system a takedown would be worth another two team points instead of zero in most cases.  Add to that a guy up 8-12 points might not go for more points and be happy with the major decision.

With this system if a wrestler is stalling it will also affect the team score, so a guy that is sitting on a 6 point lead getting dinged for stalling a couple times will also hurt the team score.
Bunch of snowflakes run this board, sad how the mods cater to people that support one political party.