Author Topic: Rule Changes for college wrestling....  (Read 7098 times)

Offline Black-n-Red

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Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« on: March 10, 2014, 08:46:05 AM »
There was a previous thread where Ray Brinzer and other were discussing rules changes to promote more scoring.

After watching the BigTens this weekend, one GLARING thing jumped out at me.

When in the top position, dropping down to a leg should be a technical violation, in my book.  It's bad enough watching guys like Delgado dive to a leg on every opponent's shot and end up in those ridiculous stalemates but to watch the top guy dropping down to that leg and fake like they were trying to work back up is terrible and boring to watch.

Top wrestler - YOU ARE ON TOP .  That means you should be working for a fall.  Dropping down to a leg is NOT working for a fall. 

For those who would argue that they are working to break a guy down, no they are not.  The top guy is working backwards by dropping down to a leg.

Technical violation for grabbing a leg at any time with both hands/arms when in the top position.

Offline buck

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 09:03:52 AM »
Take a breath and think about it some more.
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Offline brycemus

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 10:08:32 AM »
it should be called correctly
1.  Stalemate
2. Stall warning
3. Stall point

sometimes you have guys doing it right other times nope.  it's not a rule it's an enforcement.


I'd like to see 2pt NF go to 3 pt.  and 3pt go to 4.
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Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 11:08:47 AM »
So we want to prohibit the banana split, spladle, navy ride, and any number of holds which may arise in the course of a legitimate scramble?

Offline Black-n-Red

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 11:09:22 AM »
Take a breath and think about it some more.

There's not much to think about - it's boring to watch.

It's especially boring when the bottom guy is down by one with less than 20 seconds to go and you know the top guy is going to do nothing more than drop to a leg and hang on and you have to watch the bottom guy flailing and kicking  and both wrestlers know there isn't enough time for a stall warning and a second call for the tying point.


Offline Black-n-Red

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 11:12:43 AM »
So we want to prohibit the banana split, spladle, navy ride, and any number of holds which may arise in the course of a legitimate scramble?

I'm not sure what hold you are referring to with the Navy Ride but the spladle and the banana splits are initiated with a leg in first.

I'm talking about when the first thing the top guy does is grab the leg with out using his legs in any way.  Pretty obvious the top guy is NOT working for a fall when they do this.

Offline brycemus

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 11:15:54 AM »
the tight waist ankle pick is a legit breakdown move to flatten a kid out.  it's taught at the lowest levels and hell we still drilled it in college.  there are Any number of ways to counter it including reaching back and picking the hand, a roll through using the forward pressure (my favorite), or the good old fashioned mule kick.

you can't ban a move just because some people use it to stall.  you Call stalling to punish them for using it incorrectly. 
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Offline Black-n-Red

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 11:23:44 AM »
Once again, you're talking about a guy has ONE hand on the bottom guy's leg/ankle and ONE hand around his waist.

I'm talking about when the top guy reaches down around the leg and as soon as the bottom guy does anything like stand up or turn in to him, the top guy wraps both arms around the leg and acts like he's trying to finish  when he's not.

It's clock milking time and it's not good for wrestling.

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 11:50:42 AM »
So we want to prohibit the banana split, spladle, navy ride, and any number of holds which may arise in the course of a legitimate scramble?

I'm not sure what hold you are referring to with the Navy Ride but the spladle and the banana splits are initiated with a leg in first.

With the spladle, you usually attack the far leg with your arms first, and secure the near leg with your leg after.  Sometimes you catch it as you roll.

This is the best picture of a navy ride immediately available, though the top man isn't using both hands on the leg, here.



Usually you want to release once the bottom man is turned (as above), but you may well want to lock or reinforce with the other hand while trying to get him over.

There are other turns which are harder to describe.  I usually needed both hands on one ankle, at a certain point, in order to get a bent-leg turk (aka bow-and-arrow).  i.e. This thing:



Then you have scrambley things like this:



Or when I have a cradle, and the bottom man's head slips out.

I'm talking about when the first thing the top guy does is grab the leg with out using his legs in any way.  Pretty obvious the top guy is NOT working for a fall when they do this.

I understand what you want to get rid of, but the idea for how you're going to do it isn't clear.  If you want to make something a technical violation, you need to formulate a rule which describes what you're trying to prohibit.  So far we have:

Technical violation for grabbing a leg at any time with both hands/arms when in the top position.

Nothing about whether a leg is in.  If that's the rule, and the top man grabs my athlete's leg with both hands/arms in order to turn him, I'm demanding a point.  And you can't make a hold illegal "except when the intent is to turn".

Well, I suppose you could, but it'd be a hell of a mess.

Offline ban basketball

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 01:18:06 PM »
I think the complaints and crying about "stalling' is getting almost to crisis levels, and is seriously alienating me away from the sport; it's utterly frickin maddening.

So, my rule proposal is this:  when fans scream, "stalling" only because their guy is losing and they're indesperation mode for a free point to be given from the ref, the team is given a warning, and when it happens again, the team is penalized one point for each violation from that pernt onward.

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Offline Black-n-Red

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 01:20:34 PM »
There was a previous thread where Ray Brinzer and other were discussing rules changes to promote more scoring.

After watching the BigTens this weekend, one GLARING thing jumped out at me.

When in the top position, dropping down to a leg should be a technical violation, in my book.  It's bad enough watching guys like Delgado dive to a leg on every opponent's shot and end up in those ridiculous stalemates but to watch the top guy dropping down to that leg and fake like they were trying to work back up is terrible and boring to watch.

Top wrestler - YOU ARE ON TOP .  That means you should be working for a fall.  Dropping down to a leg is NOT working for a fall. 

For those who would argue that they are working to break a guy down, no they are not.  The top guy is working backwards by dropping down to a leg.

Technical violation for grabbing a leg at any time with both hands/arms when in the top position when there is no leg in.


Offline Black-n-Red

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 01:21:52 PM »
There, I changed it for you, Ray.

I think the powers that be on the rules committee can come up with a way to write the rule so it can be enforced....

I know - call me an optimist.........

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 01:35:11 PM »
Technical violation for grabbing a leg at any time with both hands/arms when in the top position when there is no leg in.

Or when the head is included, I suppose, unless you want to outlaw the cradle.

I think the powers that be on the rules committee can come up with a way to write the rule so it can be enforced....

I know - call me an optimist.........

Eeegh... yeah, I'm pretty optimistic in a lot of things, but I can't match you there.

Why don't you keep this idea in mind as you watch wrestling, and try to find how many unintended consequences it would have?  I'm thinking there are a good number of babies which ought not to be thrown out with the bathwater.

I think you might get a lot closer to your intention if you limited this call to when the bottom man was on his feet.  Sort of the opposite of the locking hands rule.  It would have some false negatives, but many fewer false positives.

Offline brycemus

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 01:56:26 PM »
it's a simple fix

1st Time: Stalemate
2nd Time: Stall warning
3rd Time: Stall point
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Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Rule Changes for college wrestling....
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 02:08:07 PM »
it's a simple fix

1st Time: Stalemate
2nd Time: Stall warning
3rd Time: Stall point

Simpler still:  call stalling much faster when you see it.