Author Topic: miller's screw job  (Read 15422 times)

Offline Gantry

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2015, 12:55:01 PM »
WTF???? Kent St coaches are now supposed to be keeping track of the scorers table because of what happened in an OSU vs Minny dual???? This is getting ridiculous!

IMO they should have known the proper way to challenge scoring in a match.  They are coaches with, correct me if I'm wrong here, the power to challenge the scoring officially.  After Steiber/Dardanes it was pretty darn clear that a coach needs to keep track of score and what needs to be done in case the refs get the score wrong.  It was a big deal, really focused the wrestling world to incorrect scoring and part of their job is to know what to do.  They didn't learn from the Mn coaches mistakes.  That's on them...

I'm not debating IF it should be on them or if there are better ways to do it.  But as coaches, ESPECIALLY after a nearly-identical issue that just happened and caused a bit of controversy, they should have known what to do. 

Again, there is enough blame to go around and I don't think there is one single person who is at fault here. But I also don't think the KSU coaches are exempt. 

Offline jammen

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2015, 01:20:40 PM »
I think that every team should have a dedicated asst ref tracking the score/riding time/clock, but the Kent State coaches did officially challenge the scoring by asking the scorers table to check the score.  Don't be fooled by the NCAA's nonsense that a video review challenge was required.   Have you ever in your life seen a coach use such a challenge to correct the score?  I haven't.   Andrassey was right that this would never have happened to higher profile coach.
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Offline SingletSlinger

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2015, 01:40:31 PM »
Here is video of the coaches challenging the call and getting brushed away.

https://twitter.com/CPyles8/status/580363966544777216/video/1
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Offline buck

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2015, 01:51:15 PM »
Kent State's coaches had their heads up their asses and had no idea what the correct score was.
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Offline ViseGrip

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2015, 01:53:18 PM »
Here is video of the coaches challenging the call and getting brushed away.

https://twitter.com/CPyles8/status/580363966544777216/video/1

Still further evidence of the absurdity of blaming the coaches.
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Offline Gantry

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2015, 02:29:44 PM »
I think that every team should have a dedicated asst ref tracking the score/riding time/clock, but the Kent State coaches did officially challenge the scoring by asking the scorers table to check the score.  Don't be fooled by the NCAA's nonsense that a video review challenge was required.   Have you ever in your life seen a coach use such a challenge to correct the score?  I haven't.   Andrassey was right that this would never have happened to higher profile coach.

If there is no rule that you have to video challenge the scoring call, then I stand corrected.   

Offline ctc

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2015, 03:13:39 PM »
Here is video of the coaches challenging the call and getting brushed away.

https://twitter.com/CPyles8/status/580363966544777216/video/1
Well, we know they went to the table.  That is all the video confirms.
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Offline LILHOWDOG

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2015, 03:49:40 PM »
Here is video of the coaches challenging the call and getting brushed away.

https://twitter.com/CPyles8/status/580363966544777216/video/1
Well, we know they went to the table.  That is all the video confirms.

Coach Hill asked for a score check and the ref said "I promise the score is right".

Offline leglace

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2015, 06:48:08 PM »
 A scoring error occurred and it is not the coaches fault. End of argument. The officials should have had hubris to assure even themselves that they got it right.
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Offline brycemus

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2015, 08:12:35 PM »
A scoring error occurred and it is not the coaches fault. End of argument. The officials should have had hubris to assure even themselves that they got it right.
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Offline matref0

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2015, 02:11:36 PM »
I think that every team should have a dedicated asst ref tracking the score/riding time/clock, but the Kent State coaches did officially challenge the scoring by asking the scorers table to check the score.  Don't be fooled by the NCAA's nonsense that a video review challenge was required.   Have you ever in your life seen a coach use such a challenge to correct the score?  I haven't.   Andrassey was right that this would never have happened to higher profile coach.

If there is no rule that you have to video challenge the scoring call, then I stand corrected.

In my opinion since replay/review was introduced, everyone has assumed that if there is a match issue, the replay has to solve it.  This is not true.  In this instance the Kent State coach was well within his rights and within the rules to question.

3.12 Questioning the Referee.

3.12.1 Coach. A coach shall be permitted, without penalty, to approach the scorer’s table with the intent of correcting or asking for an interpretation of the score or time.

KSU did this and the official team should get together and determine if the score error claim existed or not.  Everything I see was the official team (that includes the table workers) didn't do due diligence to to meet with the coach and discuss. This is as simple as the refs and the table worker looking at the bout sheet.  Hopefully someone in that group would have asked what that +2 on the bout sheet met.  If the coach is still convinced that a scoring error exists, he can officially challenge that and that probably should have occurred prior to OT starting.

The coach did know there was a scoring action but the officials team, IMO, did not give him his day in court.  Scoring errors happen all the time and I can tell you first hand how easy it is to lose track, signal the wrong colors ect.  However, I find it egregious that two of the top rated officials in the country and for the most part professional table workers couldn't sort this out.  I think a coach does bear some burden by knowing the score but I think in this case the coach demonstrated he did recognize a scoring error and was basically blown off.  As the HC said, he should have raised the flag but it was an error that should have been able to be corrected without a review/challenge.

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2015, 04:21:14 PM »
I think that every team should have a dedicated asst ref tracking the score/riding time/clock, but the Kent State coaches did officially challenge the scoring by asking the scorers table to check the score.  Don't be fooled by the NCAA's nonsense that a video review challenge was required.   Have you ever in your life seen a coach use such a challenge to correct the score?  I haven't.   Andrassey was right that this would never have happened to higher profile coach.

If there is no rule that you have to video challenge the scoring call, then I stand corrected.

In my opinion since replay/review was introduced, everyone has assumed that if there is a match issue, the replay has to solve it.  This is not true.  In this instance the Kent State coach was well within his rights and within the rules to question.

3.12 Questioning the Referee.

3.12.1 Coach. A coach shall be permitted, without penalty, to approach the scorer’s table with the intent of correcting or asking for an interpretation of the score or time.

KSU did this and the official team should get together and determine if the score error claim existed or not.  Everything I see was the official team (that includes the table workers) didn't do due diligence to to meet with the coach and discuss. This is as simple as the refs and the table worker looking at the bout sheet.  Hopefully someone in that group would have asked what that +2 on the bout sheet met.  If the coach is still convinced that a scoring error exists, he can officially challenge that and that probably should have occurred prior to OT starting.

The coach did know there was a scoring action but the officials team, IMO, did not give him his day in court.  Scoring errors happen all the time and I can tell you first hand how easy it is to lose track, signal the wrong colors ect.  However, I find it egregious that two of the top rated officials in the country and for the most part professional table workers couldn't sort this out.  I think a coach does bear some burden by knowing the score but I think in this case the coach demonstrated he did recognize a scoring error and was basically blown off.  As the HC said, he should have raised the flag but it was an error that should have been able to be corrected without a review/challenge.

What is your opinion of the NCAA Official's statement??
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Offline matref0

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2015, 10:05:47 PM »
Vise,

If you are talking about the NCAA spokesman, I felt he came off like an arrogant and smug bureaucrat.  I'm obviously a rules oriented guy and I've spent over 30 years working in the federal bureaucracy so I know how blame gets shifted so you look better.  That is exactly what he did.  I still believe that that since the replay was established, the rule allowing coaches to approach officials is forgotten.  Kent State did follow the rules and in my opinion were blown off.  If I'm evaluating officials and a coach goes to the table, I expect the official to shut up and listen and then make a ruling.  In wrestling, coaches have few rights.  A conference at the table is one of them and they should be allowed to speak and receive some due diligence.  They may not like the outcome but it is the duty of the referee to listen and then evaluate.  In this case, the refs heard something and the video clearly shows they did little to evaluate thus not providing due diligence to the coach.

Offline leglace

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2015, 09:18:11 AM »
Vise,

If you are talking about the NCAA spokesman, I felt he came off like an arrogant and smug bureaucrat.  I'm obviously a rules oriented guy and I've spent over 30 years working in the federal bureaucracy so I know how blame gets shifted so you look better.  That is exactly what he did.  I still believe that that since the replay was established, the rule allowing coaches to approach officials is forgotten.  Kent State did follow the rules and in my opinion were blown off.  If I'm evaluating officials and a coach goes to the table, I expect the official to shut up and listen and then make a ruling.  In wrestling, coaches have few rights.  A conference at the table is one of them and they should be allowed to speak and receive some due diligence.  They may not like the outcome but it is the duty of the referee to listen and then evaluate.  In this case, the refs heard something and the video clearly shows they did little to evaluate thus not providing due diligence to the coach.

Agreed.
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Offline ViseGrip

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Re: miller's screw job
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2015, 12:33:00 PM »
Vise,

If you are talking about the NCAA spokesman, I felt he came off like an arrogant and smug bureaucrat.  I'm obviously a rules oriented guy and I've spent over 30 years working in the federal bureaucracy so I know how blame gets shifted so you look better.  That is exactly what he did.  I still believe that that since the replay was established, the rule allowing coaches to approach officials is forgotten.  Kent State did follow the rules and in my opinion were blown off.  If I'm evaluating officials and a coach goes to the table, I expect the official to shut up and listen and then make a ruling.  In wrestling, coaches have few rights.  A conference at the table is one of them and they should be allowed to speak and receive some due diligence.  They may not like the outcome but it is the duty of the referee to listen and then evaluate.  In this case, the refs heard something and the video clearly shows they did little to evaluate thus not providing due diligence to the coach.

Thank you. I agree
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