Poll

How much freedom should people have?

100% no government interference of any kind
75% mostly free but government takes some of your freedoms (ability to discriminate or create hateful exhibitions)
50% regressive government control of much of your life possibly through state religion
0% total control by a government or other entity. No personal decisions allowed or made. Completely at the mercy of government

Author Topic: Freedom  (Read 10368 times)

Offline TobusRex

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Freedom
« on: March 31, 2015, 09:55:17 AM »
Do you think people should have absolute freedom? Why? Do you believe in absolute freedom with no law? Do you believe in absolute freedom of action but only with law? If so who should administer the law?

If you believe that people cannot be trusted with complete freedom what other earthly power, if not the government,  do you think should have control?

If you had to pick one human being to be the Dictator of the World (and it couldn't be somebody in your extended family) who would you pick?

Please consider your answers carefully.

Bullshit artists please put a smiley in your post somewhere.



Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul? - Clarence Darrow

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 10:24:00 AM »
Would I rather be burned at the stake or boiled alive?  :(
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all that want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics" -Thomas Sowell

Offline TobusRex

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 10:53:00 AM »
Burning. Quicker and less painful.
Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul? - Clarence Darrow

Offline mspart

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 01:25:18 PM »
Do you think people should have absolute freedom? Why? Do you believe in absolute freedom with no law? Do you believe in absolute freedom of action but only with law? If so who should administer the law?

If you believe that people cannot be trusted with complete freedom what other earthly power, if not the government,  do you think should have control?

If you had to pick one human being to be the Dictator of the World (and it couldn't be somebody in your extended family) who would you pick?

Please consider your answers carefully.

Bullshit artists please put a smiley in your post somewhere.

Absolute Freedom is anarchy.  Laws are necessary to deter "crime" so that we don't have to live in fear for our lives all the time.  Within the bounds of the law, we should be free to determine our fates.  However, there is a caveat.  As civilization degrades (which has always been the case in the history of the world), more laws are necessary to control the populace from harmful behavior.  As John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”  As the people begin to be immoral and non-religious, it is not adequate.  So freedom is predicated on the morality of the people.  Less moral, less free either by their own action or that of the government to control bad behavior.  A moral people will choose moral persons to administer the law.  As civilization degrades, so do those who administer the law.  Corruption breeds corruption.

Answer to second question, see above.   

3rd question  -  TobusRex.   :D

mspart

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 02:59:37 PM »
For want of a 95% option, which would probably be about right, I voted 75%.  I'm fine with government building roads, providing for the common defense, issuing currency, etc.  Article I, Section 8 of our Constitution is actually a pretty good fit for my outlook.  The functions I want government to serve boil down to protecting individual rights, enforcing contracts, and implementing a limited number of mechanisms which cannot be achieved by individual action (e.g. issuing patents and copyrights).

That said, my core political belief is "Leave me the hell alone," and most of the rest can be deduced from that.  I like personal liberty.  I don't like being bothered.  I like helping people, and I hate being forced to help people.  I'm okay with not being helped, in exchange for being left alone.  I'm okay with paying taxes, but I shouldn't have to calculate anything.  I'm okay with busybody moralists of all stripes trying to win public opinion, but I'd be very pleased if most of that public opinion never turned into legislation.

Interestingly, I really don't care about self-government or democracy.  These can be useful in preventing bad government, but I don't value them in themselves.  While I will occasionally speak in support of states' rights, or local government, these are merely a means to an end.  Often a smaller government will do a better job, but when the higher level of government acts to secure individual rights against lower governments (e.g. the Emancipation Proclamation), I'm all for it.  To me, the best parts of the U.S. Constitution are those which protect us from democratically-created laws.  The fact that a majority of people want something doesn't mean a damned thing to me, except insofar as avoiding domestic unrest is concerned.  I would be quite fine with living in an unconstitutional monarchy, and never voting again, so long as it offered more personal liberty and a good standard of living.

And that's my idea of freedom.

Offline Cougar1

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 05:08:02 PM »
Quote
For want of a 95% option, which would probably be about right, I voted 75%.

I'm down with this.
“Once abolish the God and the government becomes the God.”

― G.K. Chesterton

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 06:09:51 PM »
I didnt vote because it was purposefully designed by the author to get the results he wanted.   Absolutely no one would pick the first or last options, and very very very few people would pick the third option. Thus It appears he wants to believe that his version of a governmentally enforced politically correct society is what most people want which satisfies his desire to believe he is in the majority.

A 5th option like something of the following should be allowed:

75-95% mostly free but government compels you to pay taxes to pay for mutually beneficial public services like roads and military and prohibits citizens from harming others. (or basically what Brinzer outlined earlier)
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all that want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics" -Thomas Sowell

Offline n9531l

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 06:21:54 PM »
The government interferes with me a lot but I'm having trouble working out the percentages. They make me have a pilot license and medical certificate in order to fly. They won't let me fly into prohibited or restricted areas, and make me get a clearance before entering controlled airspace around busy airports. They make me register my plane, have it inspected every year, and take a flight review every two years. They have a 3-inch thick book of rules I have to follow. So when it comes to flying, what percent of my freedom has the government taken?

I could save a lot of time and money if I had 100% freedom, but there are nuts who would endanger me if they had the same freedom. So my choice would be 100% freedom for myself, and 50% government control for everyone else.
Orthography is next to cleanliness, which is next to godliness. - n9531l

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 06:39:18 PM »
Thus It appears he wants to believe that his version of a governmentally enforced politically correct society is what most people want which satisfies his desire to believe he is in the majority.

It strikes me more as honest but obtuse.  I don't think Toby understands more than a caricature of his opponents.  Not many people do, though, including (in my opinion) most of the people here. Which is one reason I once said:

I would find it more amusing if, from now until Christmas, we all agreed to trade positions and argue against our own ideas.

It's an excellent exercise.

Offline TobusRex

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 09:35:38 PM »
It's not meant to be scientific. I even invited satire. I'm curious as to what you guys think is all. I'm chiefly interested in views on which authority, if not the government, you want to run the show. I'm interested in hearing the argument for your position. I have no agenda on this poll but in light of the discussion regarding Indiana's law I think it's obvious that if we want to live in a civilized society where people treat each other with respect and courtesy that unlimited freedom cannot be accomodated. It's a logical impossibility.

Interesting take on the topic Art. I see you strongly interlace religion and morality.
Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul? - Clarence Darrow

Offline TobusRex

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 10:47:12 PM »
The government interferes with me a lot but I'm having trouble working out the percentages. They make me have a pilot license and medical certificate in order to fly. They won't let me fly into prohibited or restricted areas, and make me get a clearance before entering controlled airspace around busy airports. They make me register my plane, have it inspected every year, and take a flight review every two years. They have a 3-inch thick book of rules I have to follow. So when it comes to flying, what percent of my freedom has the government taken?

I could save a lot of time and money if I had 100% freedom, but there are nuts who would endanger me if they had the same freedom. So my choice would be 100% freedom for myself, and 50% government control for everyone else.

Interesting
Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul? - Clarence Darrow

Offline royboy

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 11:07:59 PM »
We don't need no water let t mo'fudger burn.
"Really? Well please tell your father-in-law that he is a freaking idiot."

Offline mspart

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 02:51:31 AM »

Interesting take on the topic Art. I see you strongly interlace religion and morality.

Yes, I closely correlate religious observance with morality.  A moral person will not take advantage of another, will be honest, etc, in other words, a good citizen.  Not everytime but as a general rule I think this is true.  And a moral people do not need much government interference.  In general of course.  As was noted, government has a place and is needed to do certain things. 

mspart

Offline Intensity guru

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 12:00:13 PM »
It's not meant to be scientific. I even invited satire. I'm curious as to what you guys think is all. I'm chiefly interested in views on which authority, if not the government, you want to run the show. I'm interested in hearing the argument for your position. I have no agenda on this poll but in light of the discussion regarding Indiana's law I think it's obvious that if we want to live in a civilized society where people treat each other with respect and courtesy that unlimited freedom cannot be accomodated. It's a logical impossibility.

Interesting take on the topic Art. I see you strongly interlace religion and morality.
I answered #1. We've talked about my views on natural law, social contracts and the difficulty in developing a vision from inside such a rigid/entrenched paradigm a few times before. I'd be happy to lay it all out again when I get some time and I'm in front of a computer and not sitting on the toilet phone in hand.
I always bring my hips to the party.

Offline ViseGrip

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Re: Freedom
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 02:50:00 PM »
It's not meant to be scientific. I even invited satire. I'm curious as to what you guys think is all. I'm chiefly interested in views on which authority, if not the government, you want to run the show. I'm interested in hearing the argument for your position. I have no agenda on this poll but in light of the discussion regarding Indiana's law I think it's obvious that if we want to live in a civilized society where people treat each other with respect and courtesy that unlimited freedom cannot be accomodated. It's a logical impossibility.

Interesting take on the topic Art. I see you strongly interlace religion and morality.
I answered #1. We've talked about my views on natural law, social contracts and the difficulty in developing a vision from inside such a rigid/entrenched paradigm a few times before. I'd be happy to lay it all out again when I get some time and I'm in front of a computer and not sitting on the toilet phone in hand.

Would that mean no criminal statues at all, because thats what the "no government influence of any kind" seems to me to indicate.

Surely you are in favor of laws that prevent you from robbing your neighbor.....arernt you?
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all that want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics" -Thomas Sowell