Author Topic: Individual results  (Read 14731 times)

Offline OkieSpladle

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 12:21:18 PM »
Wrestlingmall did it, then NWCA Scorebook was the "official" site for it, also know Earl did it but stopped because of how much time it took. 

I'd be fully willing to help out anyone willing to take it on, have plenty of spare internet time and tech skills.  That said, I probably wouldn't undertake the whole thing myself, I think we need to crowdsource it a la wikipedia.

I think this is the solution.  Having a dedicated group of trustworthy people that all have access to update a database that users can then access to pull stats is likely the only way it gets done.  I would be up for that as well.  It seems there are enough of us around that we could easily build a coalition to attack the problem.

Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 01:07:45 PM »
I think this is the solution.  Having a dedicated group of trustworthy people that all have access to update a database that users can then access to pull stats is likely the only way it gets done.

What would the schema look like?

Offline goStanford18

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2015, 02:53:11 PM »
It would certainly take a dedicated group or an extremely dedicated individual such as Earl to compile the results for the entire Division. According to his website from last year, there are currently 11 conferences (to my knowledge, the WCC and Big 12 merge didn't go through; correct me if I am wrong):

1. ACC (6 schools)
2. Big 10 (14 schools)
3. Big 12: (4 schools)
4. EIWA (16 schools)
5. EWL (7 schools)
6. MAC (8 schools)
7. Pac 12 (6 schools)
8. SoCon (8 schools)
9. WWC (6 schools)
10. CAA (6 schools)
11. East Region (5 schools)

Assuming those numbers are correct, there are a total of 86 D1 wrestling programs. Outside of Illinois and Stanford, these are some of the stats I was able to find from some of the top programs in the country.

Illinois: http://sidearm.sites.s3.amazonaws.com/fightingillini.com/documents/2015/12/4/15_16_Season_Stats_12_1.pdf (shows individual match-by-match results)
Iowa: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/iowa/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/2015-16/stats/season_stats.pdf (shows individual match-by-match results)
Michigan: http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-wrestl/archive/wrm-statistics.html (shows records)
Missouri: http://sidearm.sites.s3.amazonaws.com/mutigers.com/documents/2015/12/6/2015_16_Wrestling_Match_by_Match_Results.pdf (shows individual match-by-match results)
Nebraska: http://www.huskers.com//pdf9/4233307.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=100 (shows match-by-match results)
North Carolina State: http://sidearm.sites.s3.amazonaws.com/gopack.com/documents/2015/12/7/stats_1207.pdf (shows match-by-match results)
Ohio State: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/osu/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/2015-16/stats/season_stats.pdf (shows records and stats; doesn't show match-by-match results)
Penn State: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/psu/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/2015-16/stats/season_stats.pdf (shows records and stats; doesn't show match-by-match results)
Stanford: https://admin.xosn.com/pdf9/4175207.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=30600& (shows individual and team results)
Virginia Tech: http://www.hokiesports.com/wrestling/stats/ (shows individual records; not match-by-match results)

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 05:20:09 PM »
I can tell you this, yes, it should absolutely be the responsibility of the individual school.

From a sport-wide scenario, I'm just trying to track all the dual meet finals and come up with an accurate and updated list of simple standings for the four-year divisions.

I've got this started at www.mattalkonline.com/standings

(Note, I change the sorts a few times a week, so they might be out of ... sorts ... at various times).

A lot of the issues I have with tracking down the dual meet results are with the smaller schools where there's an assistant soccer coach doubling as an SID. At the Division I level, they should be updated at the end of each dual -- no excuse.

So I agree with V on the team side aspect of it. The agent responsible for entering the information post-match into track should also not wait 3-4 days. That needs to be done immediately after the match, not waiting until the next morning. If that's an SID, a coach, a team manager, I don't care.
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Offline OkieSpladle

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2015, 02:34:39 PM »
I think this is the solution.  Having a dedicated group of trustworthy people that all have access to update a database that users can then access to pull stats is likely the only way it gets done.

What would the schema look like?

From the standpoint of people inputting match results it could be pretty simple.  I would envision a simple web app that lets you pick a team, pick a wrestler, select the opponent and pick the result.  If you wanted to do full stats you could have either totals boxes that take inputs or even a full blown play-by-play input if that information is available.  Considering the varying degrees of information available (from full video to almost nothing) it would probably be necessary to allow anything from just the result to full play-by-play to be entered.  Proper filtering of lists based on selections and checking for duplicate records would be a must for ease of input and accuracy of data, but I can't imagine we would give everyone access to input results.

The back end would take more work, but it wouldn't be overly difficult.  It would just take input of teams and wrestlers which would need to be kept up to date.  I imagine the same coalition would help with that too.  The wrestlingstats.com databases already have much of this information in place.  It wouldn't take much to build that out into a full results and statistics tracking system.

Offline leglace

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2015, 10:17:55 AM »
I thought I had it better 10-12 years ago with wrestlingmall.com. I miss those days. We somehow never moved forward.


I remember there was one site that had all the wrestler's matches and it went back for a few years. Maybe it was wrestlingmall. I miss that resource, for sure. I like cross referencing wrestlers and looking at their past history. D1wrestling used to have info that went back more than 1 year as well. I guess it was too much work to keep on top of it all.

Yes, Wrestlingmall did it way back. It was a free resource and I recall that it hurt Intermat a bit back then, though it did push Intermat to offer subscribers much more.

I see Trackwrestling offers individual stats as well as Trackcast. However it is limited to the events they host. What happens to NWCA site? It seemed fitting for them to do it.

I wish Trackwrestling and Flo merged. I would kill to have tracks live scoring combined with Flo's video. Then give me a roku channel, and they would have my $$. I am watching the Beast now on Flo and I have no idea who I wrestling or what the score is. They just leave the camera stationed unmanned for the quarterfinals.

Anyway, I realize it requires a lot of work. I would gladly pay for a service that gave me full access to individual results and live events.
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Offline leglace

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2015, 12:33:49 PM »
Here is a thought. This is the friggin TheOpenmat.com.

I am pledging $150 toward a wrestling result/stat site operated by theopenmat volunteers. I know it usually comes down to money. I say if we get enough pledges, we start putting some resources together.
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Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2015, 04:47:25 PM »
Here is a thought. This is the friggin TheOpenmat.com.

I am pledging $150 toward a wrestling result/stat site operated by theopenmat volunteers. I know it usually comes down to money. I say if we get enough pledges, we start putting some resources together.

Good thought.  You're right, and I admire your initiative.

Offline leglace

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2015, 05:38:56 PM »
I meant to call it a "kickstarter" project.

TheOpenMat.com wrestling database project.
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Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2015, 12:49:57 AM »
Yes, Wrestlingmall did it way back. It was a free resource and I recall that it hurt Intermat a bit back then, though it did push Intermat to offer subscribers much more.

I see Trackwrestling offers individual stats as well as Trackcast. However it is limited to the events they host. What happens to NWCA site? It seemed fitting for them to do it.

I wish Trackwrestling and Flo merged. I would kill to have tracks live scoring combined with Flo's video. Then give me a roku channel, and they would have my $$. I am watching the Beast now on Flo and I have no idea who I wrestling or what the score is. They just leave the camera stationed unmanned for the quarterfinals.

Anyway, I realize it requires a lot of work. I would gladly pay for a service that gave me full access to individual results and live events.
[/quote]

One of my issues with TWM back when I was running InterMat was I was charged with entering the results into the InterMat database (prior to the OPC having a results component that dumped the results to that site). So I'd have to actually manually put together a master schedule from the (at the time) convoluted schedules from the old OPC, then track those results team by team each night. I'd probably be up until 2 a.m. each night entering results for the site. What drove me batsh*t back then about the Mall was they would be up at the same time, entering the same results in the exact same order. I went as far as changing the fall time by one second to see if they were copied. Yup. I would find corrections in box score data and correct it, knowing other sites were sent the same release, but didn't pick up the error. The results themselves weren't proprietary back then, but I sure as heck was doing the work and to have things copied directly off one data entry to another kind of ruffled my feathers some. Granted, I was also a lot more protective of the content I was producing back then for InterMat, so I think some people might be able to relate with the feeling.

The Mall was really doing things differently back then. I'm actually going to do a series on Short Time where I talk with the original owners of InterMat (Tom Owens), TheMat (Joe Lareau) and The Wrestling Mall (Jesse Krebs) about what it was like developing media outlets for wrestling back then on the web. If it weren't for those three guys, we wouldn't have made the innovations and advances we have now. And yes, there are still some shortcomings with coverage of our sport on both the production and curation of news, which is what this thread is discussion.

The last line is what troubles me to some point about this Flo vs. Track/NWCA thing. We shouldn't have to pay for this. Isn't that part of the argument. That stuff should be available, right? The NCAA requires StatCrew for most of the major sports, this is why those key sports have consistent stats and results. This is why you can get the exact same box score on ODUsports.com for a men's basketball game that you can Gophersports.com. If we had a uniform system to enter all this, we'd be in the same statistical place as those sports and could report all that stuff to NCAA.com, ESPN, Fox Sports, USA Today, etc.

What I worry about is putting our more broken down results behind paywalls. One of Flo's sister sites (MileSplit) has individual results behind a paywall. I'd never want to see the season record form data behind a paywall honestly.

Going back to V's point. I'm having a bear of a time just tracking the dual meet results themselves. I've had to wait 2-3 days in some spots for some of the smaller programs to report scores and I'm still finding errors because a lot of times, they're sticking wrestling-illiterate GA's and student assistants on the sport.

Much like The Mall's argument with me back in the day, results should not be proprietary. And right now, even with Trackwrestling holding the NWCA's OPC "contract" ... those results aren't proprietary, you can get them a variety of ways, but they just aren't concentrated in one central spot other than Track (which is part of Flo's argument). Opening this up COULD solve that problem and it could also fragment the system even worse than it already is. What's going to happen is someone's eventually going to "own" that central results spot and we'll be right back to where we started.

I will also note that the access to those results prior to Trackwrestling was granted to Flo the year after I left the NWCA. So they did have access to the OPC results database on their site, but stopped using them after one season (I believe).

With no dog in the fight (and for full disclosure, receiving checks for work from the NWCA, Flo and Track within the last two years), I think the turf war with those factions could be handled differently. There's a lot of different arguments with that triangle of controversy. But I've also got to "sit this one out" in terms of "reporting" based on my paid relationship with all three of those factions.

Just my two cents. Prior to the NWCA buying InterMat and prior to the advent of every school having an athletics website, InterMat used to put all the box scores behind a paywall, too.
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Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2015, 06:19:39 AM »
What I worry about is putting our more broken down results behind paywalls. One of Flo's sister sites (MileSplit) has individual results behind a paywall. I'd never want to see the season record form data behind a paywall honestly.

Using volunteer labor to drive a pay service probably isn't going to work; we either make it open, or we pay people to keep it up.  I am not of the mind that going the pay route is going to create a product for us which will justify its own expense and trouble.  A paywall would also diminish the media benefit to the sport.

Creating a framework in which a community project can live, on the other hand, means less ongoing work for us, and would have auxiliary benefits.  Besides, we now have at least one pledge.  For something I'm inclined to do anyway because it'd be cool and good for wrestling, small amounts of additional motivation go a long way.

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2015, 10:11:05 AM »
Here would be my little "waving my hand furiously in the background" moment

It can't be just Division I.

It's got to be everyone, or at the very minimum, the four-year schools at the D1, D2, D3 and NAIA level. If the information exists for California and JUCO's, awesome.

The NCWA has their own thing and they are pretty tough to track in many cases. Their results also do not count against the other divisions (save Apprentice School and the PSU branch campuses).

There's more to wrestling than the 77 Division I programs.
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Offline Ray Brinzer

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2015, 10:17:22 AM »
It can't be just Division I.

Sure, no reason to limit it.

Offline andegre

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2015, 01:26:06 PM »
I feel like I need to chime-in here. If anyone doesn't know, I'm the guy that built, and maintain www.wrestlestats.com. Even though the site started out as a place to "view common opponents", it has spawned into a massive system, with ALL of the data that you guys are requesting.

There's also alot more to the website that any of you see, even the logged-in users. I have over 2 dozen other pages on the site that I use to manage all of the data, for example, "Merge Wrestler", "Roster Admin", "Events Results" (where I manually enter the results), etc.

Now, I've opened these pages up to one user of my website, he's a Rutgers fan, goes by the handle "obrats". He has helped me IMMENSELY with keeping up with all of the data that needs to be entered into the site. I've got alot of stuff automated so the site runs pretty well, but rosters, and match results are still a "manual" process. Rankings, Feature Matches, etc are all 100% automated.

Just today I had a phone call with obrats to go over a different version of manually entering match results for a dual. It's going to be a very simple page, where you click on the "Event" that you want to enter results for, then for each weight, you select winning wrestlers, losing wrestler, win type, and score, rinse-repeat for all 10 weights, and we're done. This will help us get match results entered faster.

That was a little long-winded, but what I wanted to say/mention is that I'm trying to develop the site Wiki-style, like a poster above mentioned. I would have already given up on the site if it wasn't for Obrats help. Anyway, regarding the wiki-style, I'd be open to allowing more users to be able to help out with more of this stuff, but there'd have to be a couple things that happen first, 1) I'd need to be to trust the user 2) I'd need to refine my security/permissions a little better, and 3) I'd need to modify the architecture a little more....maybe this goes with #2.

So, having said that, I'm a software developer, this is what I do. The problem that I have right now is, I have a wife, and 2 kids (2.5 years old, and 3 months). Trying to find the time to do all of this, without pissing off my wife [too much] is the hardest part. I've been pondering putting a "donate" button the website for about 6 months, I don't want to pull the trigger, because I don't want to sound greedy. The minimal ads that I have on the website are just enough to offset the monthly cost of running the website. What I'm getting at is, I'm ABSOLUTELY willing to do this work, but it's going to take me time. Having the donate button would allow me to afford to take days off so I can get more work done.

This just keeps going.......What I really want, if I was able to make enough money on this site, as I do for my career, I would, without question, make this my full-time job, develop the architecture the best and easiest way possible, then go petition schools to say "here's an interface where you can enter your match results, immediately", or provide an API that would let them upload these results. Doing this in my spare time will take years......BUT I WILL DO IT!

Offline Jason Bryant

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Re: Individual results
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2015, 04:12:49 PM »
Before I started working with the NWCA, I was freelancing with InterMat and they had this laborious upload system that would have to upload results in some weird sheet with all the database table codes, etc. It was cumbersome. Dual meets were simple. It's the individual tournaments that you get into situations.

The tournament input will be the most difficult, as are dealing with opens where you have kids from clubs and non-NCAA teams (like the PSU branch campuses), not to mention typos.

One option would be to use patreon.com and take small monthly contributions. I'm doing this with the Mat Talk Podcast Network if people want to contribute. That could help the "founders" do some contribution and it would go to the software upkeep, etc.

We also might want to see what comes out of the dustup between Flo and the NWCA to see what will eventually available.
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