Author Topic: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...  (Read 767 times)

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« on: December 27, 2019, 12:14:32 PM »
State Qualifier Finals match.

Wrestler A and Wrestler B are tied in the third period.

Both wrestlers shoot and heads collide. Immediately, both go down.

Both simultaneously ask for injury time.

At the 1:05 mark, Wrestler B's coach ask for HNC time extension.....and immediately after Coach B ask for HNC time extension, Coach A does the same....

In the event the Athletic Trainer says "Wrestler B can't continue" does Wrestler A need to be evaluated (for the match's purpose or is he automatically awarded the default win?)

Offline RYou

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2019, 10:22:51 PM »
Intentionally not answering the question, but if it was an obvious head butt and both go down, then the referee should be calling for an evaluation of both for concussion.

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2019, 10:57:21 PM »
Our organization states it needs to be asked by the wrestler or the coach, we can only suggest.

But, let's say ref asked for both to be evaluated. There is only one athletic trainer. First wrestler the trainer looks at (Wrestler B) determines he is not able to continue. Does Wrestler A win even though he is yet to be evaluated?

Offline RYou

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2019, 08:31:17 AM »
No because the 2nd wrestler has yet to be evaluated.  Each wrestler should be allowed 5 minutes for review is there is but one health care professional available.  The second 5 minute clock shouldn't start until the assessment of the first wrestler is complete.

PS the national rule states the referee can call for the health care review for cervical, head, neck injuries, not just recommend. 

Offline AKIN

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2019, 01:26:21 PM »
No because the 2nd wrestler has yet to be evaluated.  Each wrestler should be allowed 5 minutes for review is there is but one health care professional available.  The second 5 minute clock shouldn't start until the assessment of the first wrestler is complete.

PS the national rule states the referee can call for the health care review for cervical, head, neck injuries, not just recommend.

He can ask for the standard health care review, but can not ask for or recommend the extra 5 minutes evaluation time. The health care professional has to ask for it.
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Offline RYou

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2019, 05:20:45 PM »

Here it works both ways, the HCP can request the added 5 minutes, or the ref can require the HCP to do it.  There's no penalty if the HCP opts not to conduct an exam, but they have also been informed that if a referee "suggests" an examination, it behooves them to do so.

The reasoning for that lies in the referee's responsibility for the safety of the wrestlers and the NJ referees association wanted the authority to call for the examine if the referee deemed it warranted, particularly if the visiting team did not bring their own trainer and there may be hesitation to request assistance from the home team trainer.

Offline matref0

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 01:00:21 PM »
No because the 2nd wrestler has yet to be evaluated.  Each wrestler should be allowed 5 minutes for review is there is but one health care professional available.  The second 5 minute clock shouldn't start until the assessment of the first wrestler is complete.

PS the national rule states the referee can call for the health care review for cervical, head, neck injuries, not just recommend.

Just curious as to where the rules state the referee can call for a health care review?  My understanding if an injury occurs (regardless of the type), the official starts the injury time.  If the health care pro deems that they need more time to evaluate a head, spine or neck situation, they get the additional time but we don't recommend it.  Something during the initial evaluation of the wrestler by the trainer needs to prompt the need for additional time, not an official calling for something.


Offline RYou

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2020, 03:43:40 PM »
Quote from: Injury Time Rules 8-4-2a
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a.Any contestant who exhibit signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the match and shall not return to competition until cleared by an appropriate health-care professional.  (See NFHS Suggested Guidelines for Management of Concussion in Sports, in Appendix B.)


The Article does not specify whom should remove a wrestler from the match, referee, coach, wrestler or health care professional.  The referee has authority to remove a wrestler from a match, including for injury such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems.  In the example cited, both wrestlers " go down" which can be evidence of a balance problem with the rules do not define.

Quote from: Injury Time Rules 8-4-2b3
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(3) A second occurrence of injury to the head and neck involving cervical column and/or central nervous system in the same match shall require the wrestler to default the match


I think it is pretty clear the referee will retain the authority to call the default.  The referee will be closest to and most observant to both the first and second incident.  The coaches view may be obscured by the position of the referee or wrestlers and the HCP may well be treating another athlete. Surely you would not expect the wrestler to make that call.  If the referee retains the authority to default the wrestler incurring a second incident of  loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems, that is fair indication (since it is not specifically directed in the rules) the referee can refer the wrestler to the HCP for a review based on what he has observed in the ring.  The HCP has the authority to call for the 5 minute HCP review, but as the entity responsible for the safety of the wrestlers in the ring, there is no prohibition the referee can make the referral to the HCP and since the ref has the authority to start the 5 minute clock, inform the HCP he is doing so.

Offline AKIN

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2020, 09:43:01 PM »
Quote from: Injury Time Rules 8-4-2a
.
a.Any contestant who exhibit signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the match and shall not return to competition until cleared by an appropriate health-care professional.  (See NFHS Suggested Guidelines for Management of Concussion in Sports, in Appendix B.)


The Article does not specify whom should remove a wrestler from the match, referee, coach, wrestler or health care professional.  The referee has authority to remove a wrestler from a match, including for injury such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems.  In the example cited, both wrestlers " go down" which can be evidence of a balance problem with the rules do not define.

Quote from: Injury Time Rules 8-4-2b3
.
(3) A second occurrence of injury to the head and neck involving cervical column and/or central nervous system in the same match shall require the wrestler to default the match


I think it is pretty clear the referee will retain the authority to call the default.  The referee will be closest to and most observant to both the first and second incident.  The coaches view may be obscured by the position of the referee or wrestlers and the HCP may well be treating another athlete. Surely you would not expect the wrestler to make that call.  If the referee retains the authority to default the wrestler incurring a second incident of  loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems, that is fair indication (since it is not specifically directed in the rules) the referee can refer the wrestler to the HCP for a review based on what he has observed in the ring.  The HCP has the authority to call for the 5 minute HCP review, but as the entity responsible for the safety of the wrestlers in the ring, there is no prohibition the referee can make the referral to the HCP and since the ref has the authority to start the 5 minute clock, inform the HCP he is doing so.

I agree with this. My statement was that the official can not request the additional evaluation time, or ask the AHCP if they need it. The request must come from the AHCP.
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Offline red viking

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2020, 03:57:41 PM »
I would just make sure they both get properly evaluated and both get 5 minutes with the trainer if they need it. If there is one trainer for 2 wrestlers then I agree you may need to evaluate one and then the other. I wouldn't award a default to wrestler B just because trainer got to wrestler A first.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline matref0

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2020, 04:18:47 PM »
That is my point as well.  The time extension can only be granted after a medical professional determines that.  That is done by conducting an evaluation.  The referee's job is to stop the match and put the wrester(s) on some sort of clock (blood, injury or recovery).  The medical folks will may an assessment and determine if extra evaluation time is needed.

The NJ topic implies that the official can put the wrestler on the extra time and I argue, that is not the case.  I'm not talking about defaulting or anything else, just the fact that extra time needs to be based off a medical evaluation.

Offline red viking

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2020, 04:27:13 PM »
Yah you have to have a trainer there to grant the extra time. If the wrestler doesn't need it then they've cut into their injury time. If they need the extra time then they go back to 0:00 injury time but they do use an injury timeout.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline New2TheGameNYRef

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Re: Unlikely scenario, but could happen...
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2020, 08:18:49 PM »
Key is BOTH are considered an injury timeout. 2nd one gets opponent choice or possibly match defaulted if 2 HNC situations.