Author Topic: Miami Condo Collapse  (Read 6438 times)

Offline ctc

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2021, 10:35:27 PM »
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2021, 01:05:03 PM »
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2021, 04:20:01 PM »
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2021, 04:22:12 PM »
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2021, 05:04:26 PM »
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal

See RYou's comment

mspart

Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2021, 05:06:37 PM »
Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.

This is exactly the scenario my Dad was in.  Fixed income, couldn't afford etc.  I can't remember how much the assessment was.  The maker of the siding was already out of business and sued out of their mind so there was no going there for any money.  And the job needed to get done.  Like I said, they found a lot of damage under the siding. 

It sounds to me like this is what happened in this case.

mspart

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2021, 05:07:57 PM »
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.

I totally agree.  I'm in one and about to get out.  Prime example is the roof on these places have maxed out the life expectancy.  That's a capital expense that should have been accrued over 30 years, but it wasn't.  They've tried to make up that under funding over 5 years.  They added a $50 / month assessment year 3 I was here and bumped it another $50 in year 5.  This year they tagged us with a $1200 special assessment and another will likely be assessed next July.  So the residents of the past 5 years have to make up what the former residents should have been paying over the prior 25.  I'm out July 13.  I refuse to pay $500/ month in an HOA fee for crappy maintenance, landscaping and snow removal.  We were able to boot out the association manager of 20 years for misguided financial advice.

Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2021, 05:14:53 PM »
The recent engineering report criticized inadequate drainage of the ground parking deck.  It's salty atmosphere and more likely it was water accumulation around the pillars due yo poor drainage rather than rising groundwater.. if it was rising ground water due to the rising sea level, every building along the Miami waterfront would be in jeopardy.

Good Point RYou.  I heard yesterday that the building folks told the condo owners and there was of course a lot of complaining.  The money was just being raised from the owners this year 80k per unit.  So they were working it, not quick enough, and the HOA was getting a lot of kick back from the residents.   This may not be so cut and dried.  Maybe the residents did this to themselves. 

I know my Dad was President of his HOA (retirement community) when it became apparent that the siding was substandard and wicking in water.  There were 3-5 buildings and all would need new siding.  There was a lot of complaining but my Dad was a real pragmatist and insisted that it needed to be done and a special assessment was levied.  People started to hate on him and he got that all in the pipe and quit.  But they found structural problems that if left alone would have compromised the building.  Anytime you ask for a special assessment, no one is happy. 

mspart

Yes - condo associations sucks. Too many people want to go on the cheap and there are always people claiming "I can't afford this...."
Natural course of action is for the association to keep fees down in order to keep people happy. They spend more than they take in so years down the road they need an assessment. Then they still go on the cheap and do the bare minimum to get by a few more years. And the cycle continues...pure incompetence is the norm.

I totally agree.  I'm in one and about to get out.  Prime example is the roof on these places have maxed out the life expectancy.  That's a capital expense that should have been accrued over 30 years, but it wasn't.  They've tried to make up that under funding over 5 years.  They added a $50 / month assessment year 3 I was here and bumped it another $50 in year 5.  This year they tagged us with a $1200 special assessment and another will likely be assessed next July.  So the residents of the past 5 years have to make up what the former residents should have been paying over the prior 25.  I'm out July 13.  I refuse to pay $500/ month in an HOA fee for crappy maintenance, landscaping and snow removal.  We were able to boot out the association manager of 20 years for misguided financial advice.

And that is the other issue for sure.  The reserves have to be kept proper and in your case it looks like that didn't happen.   

We live in an HOA.  Dues are $0.3k / year  (for all you folks not into conversions, that's $300/year.  And they are trying to build up the reserve account because of just what you were saying.  In fact they took a resident to court for egregious violations and asked for and got a special assessment to pay for the lawyers.  I wasn't too happy about that but they have been real obstinate.  He was a former board member and knows better than to do this or litigate this.  He is sure to lose.  And have to pay lawyer fees.  And he is a lawyer for crying out loud. 

mspart

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Offline ctc

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2021, 10:12:35 PM »
Already heard it is because of climate change and rising sea levels.  They never miss an opportunity regardless of how absurd it is.

If that is remotely true, the value of the ocean / bay front housing in Miami just fell through the floor.

Ordinarily the footings for such properties are set on bedrock in which case a rising sea level would have no effect unless the underground salt water eroded the concrete and steel. 

They may well find a car at the bottom of the rubble severed a corner pillar.
Amazing how thyey think the sea level rises there and nowhere else measurable.

It is rising measurably everywhere. The rising sea levels probably made this happen sooner than it already would have. The sea water intrusion was obviously part of the reason for the concrete deterioration and higher sea level = more sea water intrusion. Welcome to logic 101
I call this a BS claim.

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal
I don't subscribe to "Libtard Logic 101".
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2021, 06:45:01 AM »

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2021, 07:41:17 AM »

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2021, 08:20:22 AM »

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.

Not
That's like telling me climate change caused my bicycle to rust because I left it outside. 
Sea salt and moisture have been rusting out steel since it was first used in construction along coastal cities. But being from the midwest, you wouldn't know about that.

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2021, 10:54:32 AM »

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.

Not
That's like telling me climate change caused my bicycle to rust because I left it outside. 
Sea salt and moisture have been rusting out steel since it was first used in construction along coastal cities. But being from the midwest, you wouldn't know about that.

It's common sense. Higher sea levels means more saltwater comes into contact with the concrete. It corrodes more quickly. Now, how much more quickly is open to debate but it still did without any doubt whatsoever.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2021, 12:00:47 PM »

It's called simple logic. Rising sea levels = more saltwater = more deterioration of concrete & metal


By volume, but minimal increase in surface area. The engineering report identified corrosion of above ground steel attributable to salty air, but the key factor appears to have been lack of control of surface water/rain which affected the foundation.

Yes but it undoubtedly contributed, contrary to ctcs claim.

Not
That's like telling me climate change caused my bicycle to rust because I left it outside. 
Sea salt and moisture have been rusting out steel since it was first used in construction along coastal cities. But being from the midwest, you wouldn't know about that.

It's common sense. Higher sea levels means more saltwater comes into contact with the concrete. It corrodes more quickly. Now, how much more quickly is open to debate but it still did without any doubt whatsoever.

But that is not what happened.  Your reading comprehension is fairly lacking here unless you can provide a report that says the pilings were damaged to due sea water incursion.  I know that's what you want to have had been, but that's not what the report says.  Time to give it up. 

mspart
mspart

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2021, 12:25:05 PM »
Concrete & rebar were both damaged from saltwater intrusion. Read the report. It's in there - black and white!!!!
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901