Author Topic: Miami Condo Collapse  (Read 6437 times)

Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2021, 01:02:56 PM »
Please show me.  I can't find any mention of saltwater intrusion.  I do see salty air, but that is expected in a seaside location.  What I do see is the following:

https://apnews.com/article/fl-state-wire-florida-2a241993956ea842262e593812ad3ada

Some of the damage to the concrete in the parking garage was minor, while other columns had exposed and deteriorating rebar. It also noted that many of the building’s previous attempts to fix the columns and other damage with epoxy were marred by poor workmanship and were failing.

Beneath the pool deck “where the slab had been epoxy-injected, new cracks were radiating from the originally repaired cracks,” the report said.  The report said the waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.  “The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replaced the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,” the report said.


Nowhere in the AP report did they cite the Morabito report as saying rising sea levels or saltwater incursion. 

I also read the Morabito report here https://www.wfla.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/71/2021/06/8777-collins-ave-structural-field-survey-report.pdf

No mention of your saltwater theory.  If it is in there in black and white I missed it.  Show me.

mspart


Offline mspart

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2021, 05:08:55 PM »
Concrete & rebar were both damaged from saltwater intrusion. Read the report. It's in there - black and white!!!!

Let's go back to what you said,.   You did not talk about a bunch of articles.  You were very specific to the report.  See above.   And I did not find it in black and white (even though it might be racist to say that) in the report put out by Morabito. 

To your articles:

1.  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/miami-condo-collapse-highlights-urgent-need-to-adapt-to-rising-seas
What!!!  You must have just read the headline.  Here is the whole headline:

Miami condo collapse highlights urgent need to adapt to rising seas

Though climate change-related factors were probably not behind the partial collapse of the Florida beachside building, other properties are vulnerable to rising seas.


2.  https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063736045   -   Apparently you did not read the very first paragraph. 

Did climate change play a role in the deadly collapse of a Miami-area condominium last week?  Experts say it's too soon to tell. At least one factor has come up as a possibility — the corrosive impact of rising sea levels — but other variables have little to do with global warming.

3.  https://www.curbed.com/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-surfside-reasons.html   -   Simply a recitation of theories that might have been the cause.   Rising sea levels is way down on the list.

4.  https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html  -  Doesn't even mention rising sea levels or global warming.

5.  https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html   -   Below is the only mention of saltwater.

CBS4’s Jim DeFede interviewed William Espinosa, a Champlain maintenance manager from the late 1990s, who said ocean saltwater would make its way into the underground garage — so much that “pumps never could keep up with it.”
However, he cautioned against rushing to conclude that all beams in the building showed similar levels of damage to those exposed to chemicals from the pool. The 2018 report that documented “severe” structural damage to concrete in the garage under the pool deck did not include photos of anything nearly as alarming as what the pool contractor documented, Ehsani said



RV - Out of the 5 links you provided, only one mentions saltwater in the story, the last one.  If there are literally hundreds if not thousands of articles out there, why did you pick these sorry articles?  So this proves you wronger than you were proved before.  At least you tried to put something together so there is credit for that.  Actually having read the articles you posted would have given you a better grade.  Or did you not expect anyone to look at these?  Wrong again.   But saying that mention of saltwater was in the report (which it did not) and then saying it is in these articles (which it is not with one exception) proves you don't know what you are talking about.  It appears from the report and these articles that the building was poorly planned and built.  It was a disaster waiting to happen.  More than rising oceans, it has  more to do with  human error in planning and execution. 

mspart

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2021, 08:03:34 PM »
Concrete & rebar were both damaged from saltwater intrusion. Read the report. It's in there - black and white!!!!

You're bullshitting because it's not in the report.  Not even mentioned.

Quote from: Morabito Consultants Report
.......waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.

The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replaced the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,......

.......damage to the concrete in the parking garage ...... minor, while
.......other columns ......exposed and deteriorating rebar.
...... many of the building’s previous attempts to fix the columns and other damage with epoxy were marred by poor workmanship and are failing.


So we have
...pool structure waterproofing that failed.....which means it was accessible.
...improperly installed....which means it was accessible
...exposed columns....which means they were observed...accessible
...Previous attempts to fix problems....poor workmanship...which means they were accessible

Typical lib spouting opinion for a desired outcome and ignoring science and truth.


Offline ctc

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2021, 09:36:37 PM »
WOW! You must be purposely trying to ignore it. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of articles out there about this.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/miami-condo-collapse-highlights-urgent-need-to-adapt-to-rising-seas

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063736045

https://www.curbed.com/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-surfside-reasons.html

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html
I clicked on your first link and found that it did not support your claim contrary to your wishful thinking.  Here it is -

Though climate change-related factors were probably not behind the partial collapse of the Florida beachside building, other properties are vulnerable to rising seas.

BYLAURA PARKER
PUBLISHED JULY 2, 2021
• 7 MIN READ

The collapse of the condominium building in Surfside, Florida, may force what some say is a long overdue conversation about the hard realities of climate change that will transform one of the nation’s most vulnerable regions.

To be sure, no evidence has emerged so far to connect climate change to the middle-of-the-night collapse of the Champlain Towers on June 24, which buried residents in the rubble. Sea level has risen eight inches in South Florida since 1981, when the 12-story condo was built—not enough to be responsible for its collapse, says Hal Wanless, a University of Miami
geologist and South Florida’s preeminent voice on sea-level rise.

No need to check the others out when your very first is a miserable FAIL.
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2021, 09:41:46 PM »
Sea level rise not enough to be the primary reason but no doubt the collapse occurred sooner than it would have otherwise as a result. Its basic logic. Higher sea levels= more salt and more water = more corrosion. Its really very basic logic
 
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline red viking

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2021, 09:44:50 PM »
I can't access the 1st article anymore wo logging in. I'm sure u are cherry picking. From the 2nd one though:

While it's still unclear what caused the damage, experts have noted that structures built in salty coastal climates are vulnerable to corrosion. Concrete is a porous substance, which makes it possible for salt water to seep inside. When that happens, salt can corrode the steel rebar used to reinforce concrete structures.
A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth - Albert Einstein, 1901

Offline ctc

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2021, 09:47:08 PM »
Sea level rise not enough to be the primary reason but no doubt the collapse occurred sooner than it would have otherwise as a result. Its basic logic. Higher sea levels= more salt and more water = more corrosion. Its really very basic logic
But you keep failing to support your claim.  Ironic that on another thread you claim that Rush specialized in "disinformation".  You seem to be the unchallenged king.
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Bob H.

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2021, 12:47:58 AM »
Sea level rise not enough to be the primary reason but no doubt the collapse occurred sooner than it would have otherwise as a result. Its basic logic. Higher sea levels= more salt and more water = more corrosion. Its really very basic logic

Only if the rise in sea levels  (which is probably only a couple of inches) was enough to allow the seawater to flow into places it otherwise wouldn't (for example, the parking garage).  Otherwise, a couple inches of additional exposure would have little to no impact. 

I would also be interested in the materials used in the construction.  Some concrete formulations are much better suited for saltwater environments.  Ditto for the rebar, which may be coated to resist corrosion (although that also brings its own set of problems).  Then there is the question of concrete coverage over the rebar.  The bar is obviously more prone to corrosion if it is placed too near the concrete surface.

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2021, 07:40:36 AM »

Only if the rise in sea levels  (which is probably only a couple of inches) was enough to allow the seawater to flow into places it otherwise wouldn't (for example, the parking garage).  Otherwise, a couple inches of additional exposure would have little to no impact. 


Over a period of 40 years, seawater seepage would have been the result of tropical storm tidal action versus any measurable impact from climate.  The report criticized the drainage from the ground level parking deck. 

The speculariton now is that the city building authority will declare the building uninhabitable and unrepairable and order it razed....financial loss decision by a municipal authority is another common exclusion in a property insurance policy.  It's just one more, documentable reason for insurers to deny a claim for loss.

Offline lkwdsteve

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2021, 07:09:45 PM »
Another reason for the collapse may have been the recent construction of another high rise too close to it.

I don't know about climate change, but critical theory teaches us that racism may have played a factor.

Offline Bob H.

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2021, 12:13:52 AM »
Hmmm.  Wasn't the building white?    :o

The remaining building was demolished with explosives today.

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2021, 01:05:19 PM »
Well, either the owners are out a tidy sum, or they will be getting a brand spanking new townhouse.  Depending on current pricing for that location, if the current owners can retain rights, and they should be able to, and the opt for a high end luxury building, they may be able to the rights for a tidy profit upon completion.

Offline ctc

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2021, 03:51:11 PM »
Well, either the owners are out a tidy sum, or they will be getting a brand spanking new townhouse.  Depending on current pricing for that location, if the current owners can retain rights, and they should be able to, and the opt for a high end luxury building, they may be able to the rights for a tidy profit upon completion.
Won't lawsuits come into play?
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline RYou

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Re: Miami Condo Collapse
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2021, 08:38:59 PM »
Well, either the owners are out a tidy sum, or they will be getting a brand spanking new townhouse.  Depending on current pricing for that location, if the current owners can retain rights, and they should be able to, and the opt for a high end luxury building, they may be able to the rights for a tidy profit upon completion.
Won't lawsuits come into play?

No question about it.  150 deceased, never mind the survivor/owners.....there wont be enough insurance to go around.

Owners Association will be the first target, but there could be a liability waiver between the owners and the association.
If there was a management company, they'll be  target.
Construction manager and contractors, not likely. since it was 40 years old and the issue was degradation over time.
Architect design firm....limited insurance, no assets, if it still exists.  Typically these are claims made policies and if there was no continuation of insurance from day 1, a claim today will be excluded.
Maintenance contractors can be a target
Engineer that did the inspection, can be a target, "wasn't strenuous enough with its warning, though such firms tend to carry little insurance and these businesses have no assets.