Poll

Can socialism and personal freedom coexist?

Yes
5 (33.3%)
No
10 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: August 22, 2009, 01:36:01 PM

Author Topic: Socialism and personal freedoms  (Read 4188 times)

Offline Cougar1

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Socialism and personal freedoms
« on: August 22, 2009, 01:36:01 PM »
OK, boys and girls, have at it.
“Once abolish the God and the government becomes the God.”

― G.K. Chesterton

Offline LoSt

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 03:45:48 AM »
While certainly the more socialist the government the more personal freedoms tend to be restricted, I think that the fact that the majority of  democracies in the world are significantly more socialistic then America would tell you that yes, they can in fact co-exist.

Unless you think all of western Europe is socially repressed.

Offline LoSt

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 03:48:28 AM »
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Offline Cougar1

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 09:17:47 AM »
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.
“Once abolish the God and the government becomes the God.”

― G.K. Chesterton

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 10:45:00 AM »
Quote from: "Cougar1"
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.

That is truly hillarious that someone could make that statement.  Absolutely asinine really. :roll:

Name one single freedom that has been limited by anything the Obama administration has done in even the slightest manner?

Here is what the Bush Adminstration perpetrated the American population:

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf

What’s in the Patriot Act?

Expands terrorism laws to include “domestic terrorism” which could subject political organizations to surveillance, wiretapping, harassment, and criminal action for political advocacy.
Expands the ability of law enforcement to conduct secret searches, gives them wide powers of phone and Internet surveillance, and access to highly personal medical, financial, mental health, and student records with minimal judicial oversight.
Allows FBI Agents to investigate American citizens for criminal matters without probable cause of crime if they say it is for “intelligence purposes.”
Permits non-citizens to be jailed based on mere suspicion and to be denied re-admission to the US for engaging in free speech.
Suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitely in six month increments without meaningful judicial review.

What Rights are threatened by the Patriot Act?

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jimmy the Gent

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 11:16:08 AM »
Quote from: "coachsparky"
Quote from: "Cougar1"
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.

That is truly hillarious that someone could make that statement.  Absolutely asinine really. :roll:

Name one single freedom that has been limited by anything the Obama administration has done in even the slightest manner?

Here is what the Bush Adminstration perpetrated the American population:

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf

What’s in the Patriot Act?

Expands terrorism laws to include “domestic terrorism” which could subject political organizations to surveillance, wiretapping, harassment, and criminal action for political advocacy.
Expands the ability of law enforcement to conduct secret searches, gives them wide powers of phone and Internet surveillance, and access to highly personal medical, financial, mental health, and student records with minimal judicial oversight.
Allows FBI Agents to investigate American citizens for criminal matters without probable cause of crime if they say it is for “intelligence purposes.”
Permits non-citizens to be jailed based on mere suspicion and to be denied re-admission to the US for engaging in free speech.
Suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitely in six month increments without meaningful judicial review.

What Rights are threatened by the Patriot Act?

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.

and they all still exist because Obama hasn't changed any of the provisions in Bush's patriot act.  He is the President of the United States with majorities in Congress and he keeps Bush Policies in tact.  Obama and his puppetmasters agree with the patriot act.

What does that tell you sparky?  LOL!!
"Jimmy, I understand your point and technically your logic is sound."  --Viratas

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 11:58:20 AM »
Quote from: "Jimmy the Gent"
Quote from: "coachsparky"
Quote from: "Cougar1"
Quote from: "LoSt"
It also amuses me to see conservatives get all worked up about how America is turning into a socialist nation...

The Patriot act took away more personal freedom then Obama will in the next three years.

Obama has already far surpassed the combined effects of the Patriot Act.

That is truly hillarious that someone could make that statement.  Absolutely asinine really. :roll:

Name one single freedom that has been limited by anything the Obama administration has done in even the slightest manner?

Here is what the Bush Adminstration perpetrated the American population:

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/patriot%20act%20flyer.pdf

What’s in the Patriot Act?

Expands terrorism laws to include “domestic terrorism” which could subject political organizations to surveillance, wiretapping, harassment, and criminal action for political advocacy.
Expands the ability of law enforcement to conduct secret searches, gives them wide powers of phone and Internet surveillance, and access to highly personal medical, financial, mental health, and student records with minimal judicial oversight.
Allows FBI Agents to investigate American citizens for criminal matters without probable cause of crime if they say it is for “intelligence purposes.”
Permits non-citizens to be jailed based on mere suspicion and to be denied re-admission to the US for engaging in free speech.
Suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitely in six month increments without meaningful judicial review.

What Rights are threatened by the Patriot Act?

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly,
and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches
and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an
impartial jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation,
right to confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual
punishment shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens)
within the US are entitled to due process and the
equal protection of the laws.

and they all still exist because Obama hasn't changed any of the provisions in Bush's patriot act.  He is the President of the United States with majorities in Congress and he keeps Bush Policies in tact.  Obama and his puppetmasters agree with the patriot act.

What does that tell you sparky?  LOL!!


Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Jimmy the Gent

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2009, 12:17:39 PM »
so are you admitting that Bush was not responsible for the Patriot Act?
"Jimmy, I understand your point and technically your logic is sound."  --Viratas

Offline Black-n-Red

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 12:24:14 PM »
CoachSparky wrote:
Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress

CoachSparky, while that is true on its face, it is kind of disingenuous because if Obama really wanted to make it a priority, his Administration could certainly lean on some Democratic members of Congress to address the issue.  They haven't.

Jimmy, there could be a variety of reasons he hasn't.  One, he has other pressing issues that he doesn't want to see get sidetracked (gee, what issue could that be right now?....)  Two, maybe he doesn't see the Patriot Act as being that threatening to personal freedoms.....which obviously supports your argument.

I'm gonna go with Option 2 with a dose of Option 1 mixed in.....

Offline Jimmy the Gent

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2009, 12:59:43 PM »
I am still waiting for sparky to admit that Bush wasn't responsible for the Patriot Act, as presidents to not make or eliminate Acts.
"Jimmy, I understand your point and technically your logic is sound."  --Viratas

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 08:02:20 AM »
Quote from: "Jimmy the Gent"
I am still waiting for sparky to admit that Bush wasn't responsible for the Patriot Act, as presidents to not make or eliminate Acts.
 Actually, it was the Bush administration that was responsible for the Patriot Act.  That is what I have always said, I never said it was the moron Bush who was responsible personally.

http://www.ala.org/ala/aboutala/offices ... ibrary.cfm

The legislation originated with Attorney General John Ashcroft, who asked Congress for additional powers that he claimed were needed to fight terrorism in the wake of the events of September 11, 2001. Few amendments were made to Ashcroft’s initial proposal to Congress, and the bill became law without any hearings or markup by a Congressional committee.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Viratas

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 08:06:35 AM »
That is just dumb and makes you look silly, when your side does it blah blah, in the end the congress signed off sparky.

Your hypocracy is astounding.
Aequitas - Veritas (is Latin)
Cóir - Fírinne
Justice - Truth

"When it’s over, I’ll look up and see what remains. If there are any bridges, I’ll cross them when I get there."

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 08:07:08 AM »
Quote from: "Black-n-Red"
CoachSparky wrote:
Quote
Jimmy are you sooo ignorant of how government works that you do not realize that Presidents do not make acts or eliminate acts that is done by congress

CoachSparky, while that is true on its face, it is kind of disingenuous because if Obama really wanted to make it a priority, his Administration could certainly lean on some Democratic members of Congress to address the issue.  They haven't.

Jimmy, there could be a variety of reasons he hasn't.  One, he has other pressing issues that he doesn't want to see get sidetracked (gee, what issue could that be right now?....)  Two, maybe he doesn't see the Patriot Act as being that threatening to personal freedoms.....which obviously supports your argument.

I'm gonna go with Option 2 with a dose of Option 1 mixed in.....

BnR, I wouls go with Option 1, with a little sprinkling of Option 2.  Yes, I know he could definitely lobby to have it removed now, but he definitely has more pressing issues he is working on and does not want to detract from at this time.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 08:09:38 AM »
Quote from: "Viratas"
That is just dumb and makes you look silly, when your side does it blah blah, in the end the congress signed off sparky.

Your hypocracy is astounding.

No hypocrisy at all V.  You cannot name one time I blamed something on congress that was the Obama administrations’ fault.  Come on V, you are losing it more and more every day.  Things not going so well in your personal life or what?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Viratas

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Re: Socialism and personal freedoms
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 08:15:30 AM »
Your weak comeback alone proves my point, Carry on with your asinine comments.
Aequitas - Veritas (is Latin)
Cóir - Fírinne
Justice - Truth

"When it’s over, I’ll look up and see what remains. If there are any bridges, I’ll cross them when I get there."