Poll

Is being gay a choice?

yes
12 (48%)
no
11 (44%)
undecided
2 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: December 17, 2009, 05:52:15 PM

Author Topic: Homosexuality  (Read 7360 times)

Offline ctc

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2010, 09:03:52 AM »
Quote from: "crablegs"
Intensity I would love to see some of the empirical studies that links homosexuality to such things.  I cant wait.  

50 years ago psychiatrists would have said?  You can't seriously be claiming that as evidence.  How many would say it is a mental disorder now?  I would guess it is close to 0.
They are victims of PC.  Their livelihoods are at stake and do not want to commit economic suicide.  Head shrinks are some of the biggest nut cases in the world.  They get into the profession trying to figure out why they themselves are so dysfunctional.  Every shrink I have met needs a shrink.
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2010, 09:39:43 AM »
Quote from: "ctc"
Quote from: "crablegs"
Intensity I would love to see some of the empirical studies that links homosexuality to such things.  I cant wait.  

50 years ago psychiatrists would have said?  You can't seriously be claiming that as evidence.  How many would say it is a mental disorder now?  I would guess it is close to 0.
They are victims of PC.  Their livelihoods are at stake and do not want to commit economic suicide.  Head shrinks are some of the biggest nut cases in the world.  They get into the profession trying to figure out why they themselves are so dysfunctional.  Every shrink I have met needs a shrink.

WOW, Talk about the POT calling the Kettle BLACK. :roll:
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline Intensity guru

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2010, 07:49:47 PM »
Quote from: "sgallan"
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

50 years ago, every single psychiatrist in the western hemisphere would have told you the same thing. You could have turned to the chapter of the APA's own "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" and read all about homosexuality. People don't necessarily choose to be mentally ill. They're not born mentally ill, but they are compelled in their destructive behaviors for one physiological/psychosomatic reason or another. It's patently obvious to me that homosexuality should never have been removed as an entry. Today, after many of the societal roadblocks to living a homosexual life style have been all but removed, homosexuals STILL display all the characteristics of having a mental disorder. Those effects are tangible and demonstrable both statistically and individually in most cases.

So you are not really a libertarian afterall. You are just another liberal who wants to control humans and their behaviors and just have different priorities of what you want to control.

Tisk, tisk.

Yes. I believe society should deal with mentally ill people. I'm not an anarchist. I believe in the rule of law. I don't think this sort of behavior should be made criminal in any way. Simply that it be recognized for what it is, a mental disorder of varying degree. And dealt with accordingly. Both by civil and government institutions, and by the general public.
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Offline Intensity guru

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2010, 08:12:23 PM »
Quote from: "crablegs"
Intensity I would love to see some of the empirical studies that links homosexuality to such things.  I cant wait.  

50 years ago psychiatrists would have said?  You can't seriously be claiming that as evidence.  How many would say it is a mental disorder now?  I would guess it is close to 0.

"Such things?" What do you mean by "such things?"

I have no misplaced hopes of changing anyone's mind here. But just for the sake of argument, let me put the ball back in your court. First, what does the psychiatric community KNOW today concerning the complexity and common behaviors of male homosexuals, that they did not know in 1973?

And what, if anything, do you know about the way in which the long-standing psychological disorder of homosexuality was removed from the DSM? Was it due to some new scientific evidence? What was the gay activist role in lobbying the APA?

Have you thought about or researched any of these things on your own?
I doubt it, simply because it's not a real popular subject and most people don't care. Not because you're a stupid person. Just because you've never really cared to know.

So don't come at me with assertions concerning what I believe to be a pretty well informed opinion of mine. Do your own research and feel free to disagree. State your reasoning and we'll talk about it.

Don't be like that pseudo-intellectual diksnot coachspunky. You're better than that.
I always bring my hips to the party.

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2010, 10:51:06 PM »
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Quote from: "crablegs"
Intensity I would love to see some of the empirical studies that links homosexuality to such things.  I cant wait.  

50 years ago psychiatrists would have said?  You can't seriously be claiming that as evidence.  How many would say it is a mental disorder now?  I would guess it is close to 0.

"Such things?" What do you mean by "such things?"

I have no misplaced hopes of changing anyone's mind here. But just for the sake of argument, let me put the ball back in your court. First, what does the psychiatric community KNOW today concerning the complexity and common behaviors of male homosexuals, that they did not know in 1973?

And what, if anything, do you know about the way in which the long-standing psychological disorder of homosexuality was removed from the DSM? Was it due to some new scientific evidence? What was the gay activist role in lobbying the APA?

Have you thought about or researched any of these things on your own?
I doubt it, simply because it's not a real popular subject and most people don't care. Not because you're a stupid person. Just because you've never really cared to know.

So don't come at me with assertions concerning what I believe to be a pretty well informed opinion of mine. Do your own research and feel free to disagree. State your reasoning and we'll talk about it.

Don't be like that pseudo-intellectual diksnot coachspunky. You're better than that.

Intemperate Guano at his best bat sh1t crazy and ignorant posting.  Speaking out of clear and undeniable bigotry without any evidence whatsoever.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

sgallan

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2010, 10:57:08 PM »
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Quote from: "sgallan"
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

50 years ago, every single psychiatrist in the western hemisphere would have told you the same thing. You could have turned to the chapter of the APA's own "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" and read all about homosexuality. People don't necessarily choose to be mentally ill. They're not born mentally ill, but they are compelled in their destructive behaviors for one physiological/psychosomatic reason or another. It's patently obvious to me that homosexuality should never have been removed as an entry. Today, after many of the societal roadblocks to living a homosexual life style have been all but removed, homosexuals STILL display all the characteristics of having a mental disorder. Those effects are tangible and demonstrable both statistically and individually in most cases.

So you are not really a libertarian afterall. You are just another liberal who wants to control humans and their behaviors and just have different priorities of what you want to control.

Tisk, tisk.

Yes. I believe society should deal with mentally ill people. I'm not an anarchist. I believe in the rule of law. I don't think this sort of behavior should be made criminal in any way. Simply that it be recognized for what it is, a mental disorder of varying degree. And dealt with accordingly. Both by civil and government institutions, and by the general public.

Sigh.... even those who 'say' they want government out of our lives don't really practice it. They want total government control depending on the subject.  have to suggest I do not find your "against big government and the politicals parties" nearly as sincere. Because really, you are just like they are.  Another "big brother knows best" type of person. "Best" being whatever you say it is..... which is exactly what liberals do. You should probably stick with the religious right wing of the Republican Party, because that is essentially what you are - not that it is a bad thing, it just is. I am all for your having these views, but excuse me if I find your "government out of our lives" and the "two parties are the same" mantra less than sincere. You are part of that.

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2010, 11:05:42 PM »
Quote from: "sgallan"
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Quote from: "sgallan"
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

50 years ago, every single psychiatrist in the western hemisphere would have told you the same thing. You could have turned to the chapter of the APA's own "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" and read all about homosexuality. People don't necessarily choose to be mentally ill. They're not born mentally ill, but they are compelled in their destructive behaviors for one physiological/psychosomatic reason or another. It's patently obvious to me that homosexuality should never have been removed as an entry. Today, after many of the societal roadblocks to living a homosexual life style have been all but removed, homosexuals STILL display all the characteristics of having a mental disorder. Those effects are tangible and demonstrable both statistically and individually in most cases.

So you are not really a libertarian afterall. You are just another liberal who wants to control humans and their behaviors and just have different priorities of what you want to control.

Tisk, tisk.

Yes. I believe society should deal with mentally ill people. I'm not an anarchist. I believe in the rule of law. I don't think this sort of behavior should be made criminal in any way. Simply that it be recognized for what it is, a mental disorder of varying degree. And dealt with accordingly. Both by civil and government institutions, and by the general public.

Nope, you are just another liberal..... you want to control people because you do not like their behavior. Just like liberals do. You just have a different emphasis of control. Now I happen to think folks like you have a mental disorder, but I am for letting you have your disorder. I have no desire to control you or people like you. On the otherhand you want people who are not like you to be controlled..... just another liberal who likes to call himself a libretarian, but isn't really.

Sigh.... rven those who 'say' they want government out of our lives don't really practice it. They want total government control depending on the subject. I am afraid you are just like the rest. Another "big brother knows best" type of person. Best being whatever you say it is..... which is exactly what liberals do.

There you go again scott.  Am I not the biggest liberal on this site?  Name one thing in which I am in favor of controlling anyone’s behavior.  Just one thing.  Oh that is right you cannot because it is only conservatives that want to control people’s behavior not liberals.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

sgallan

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2010, 11:09:42 PM »
FWIW, if there were a true libertarian on the ballot who could get about 10% of the vote, I'd actually vote in that election. But there isn't such a candidate out there. Locally here or nationally. Even most of the so-called libertarians on this board would place religious right litmus tests for any "so-called Libertarian". Basically they can only be libertarian on the right side, but not the left side. A true libertarian doesn't do that. They believe in freedom regardless of the poltical leanings of the left or right. They pull out the saftey net (conservative side) AND keep out of peoples private business (liberal side). With one exception the so-called libertarians on this board only want one side or another. That isn't libertarianism..... that is the same ol' same ol'.

sgallan

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2010, 11:15:28 PM »
Quote from: "coachsparky"
Quote from: "sgallan"
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Quote from: "sgallan"
Quote from: "Intensity guru"
Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

50 years ago, every single psychiatrist in the western hemisphere would have told you the same thing. You could have turned to the chapter of the APA's own "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" and read all about homosexuality. People don't necessarily choose to be mentally ill. They're not born mentally ill, but they are compelled in their destructive behaviors for one physiological/psychosomatic reason or another. It's patently obvious to me that homosexuality should never have been removed as an entry. Today, after many of the societal roadblocks to living a homosexual life style have been all but removed, homosexuals STILL display all the characteristics of having a mental disorder. Those effects are tangible and demonstrable both statistically and individually in most cases.

So you are not really a libertarian afterall. You are just another liberal who wants to control humans and their behaviors and just have different priorities of what you want to control.

Tisk, tisk.

Yes. I believe society should deal with mentally ill people. I'm not an anarchist. I believe in the rule of law. I don't think this sort of behavior should be made criminal in any way. Simply that it be recognized for what it is, a mental disorder of varying degree. And dealt with accordingly. Both by civil and government institutions, and by the general public.

Nope, you are just another liberal..... you want to control people because you do not like their behavior. Just like liberals do. You just have a different emphasis of control. Now I happen to think folks like you have a mental disorder, but I am for letting you have your disorder. I have no desire to control you or people like you. On the otherhand you want people who are not like you to be controlled..... just another liberal who likes to call himself a libretarian, but isn't really.

Sigh.... rven those who 'say' they want government out of our lives don't really practice it. They want total government control depending on the subject. I am afraid you are just like the rest. Another "big brother knows best" type of person. Best being whatever you say it is..... which is exactly what liberals do.

There you go again scott.  Am I not the biggest liberal on this site?  Name one thing in which I am in favor of controlling anyone’s behavior.  Just one thing.  Oh that is right you cannot because it is only conservatives that want to control people’s behavior not liberals.

I am not talking about you personally but about the Democratic Party. I don't see a dimes worth of difference between the two parties. The only differences are on the margins. They both want power and control but just differ on the details. Intensity has put himself forward as something different. He's not. He is just a religious right republican. He will, in the end, in every election, vote for the Republican candidate, which most closely matches his religious rightest views. They want control of peoples behaviors as does the Democratic Party in many other cases.

crablegs

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2010, 09:07:14 AM »
Here is what I mean by "such things".  
Quote
Homosexual behavior is linked with higher rates of promiscuity, physical disease, mental illness, substance abuse, child sexual abuse and domestic violence--all things that impact society negatively.

I don't know how you flipped this on to me being anti-intellectual.  All I did was ask you to defend such claims with evidence.  You said them, so the onus is on you.  

Quote
And what, if anything, do you know about the way in which the long-standing psychological disorder of homosexuality was removed from the DSM? Was it due to some new scientific evidence?

It wasn't really new evidence that was out, but it was the continued replication of results.  Evelyn Hooker's study (1957) was the first that showed homosexual men were equally socially adjusted as heterosexual men, and that homosexuality is not a pathology.  Between then and 1973, those results were replicated by numerous independent scientific studies (see Freedman) leading a new scientific consensus.  

 
Quote
What was the gay activist role in lobbying the APA?

You are correct there was homosexual activists lobbying the APA.  How big a role did they play in the change?  It is hard to really tell.  But claiming that the lobbying played a bigger role than the growing amount of emprical evidence is a huge assumption on your part.  

There, I answered your questions and you still haven't showed me your evidence.  I will wait.

Offline coachsparky

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2010, 10:57:36 AM »
Quote from: "crablegs"
Here is what I mean by "such things".  
Quote
Homosexual behavior is linked with higher rates of promiscuity, physical disease, mental illness, substance abuse, child sexual abuse and domestic violence--all things that impact society negatively.

I don't know how you flipped this on to me being anti-intellectual.  All I did was ask you to defend such claims with evidence.  You said them, so the onus is on you.  

Quote
And what, if anything, do you know about the way in which the long-standing psychological disorder of homosexuality was removed from the DSM? Was it due to some new scientific evidence?

It wasn't really new evidence that was out, but it was the continued replication of results.  Evelyn Hooker's study (1957) was the first that showed homosexual men were equally socially adjusted as heterosexual men, and that homosexuality is not a pathology.  Between then and 1973, those results were replicated by numerous independent scientific studies (see Freedman) leading a new scientific consensus.  

 
Quote
What was the gay activist role in lobbying the APA?

You are correct there was homosexual activists lobbying the APA.  How big a role did they play in the change?  It is hard to really tell.  But claiming that the lobbying played a bigger role than the growing amount of emprical evidence is a huge assumption on your part.  

There, I answered your questions and you still haven't showed me your evidence.  I will wait.

Outstanding post crablegs.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;  the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

Bigotry disguised as religious liberty is still BIGOTRY

Offline ctc

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2010, 09:24:22 PM »
crablegs,

Here is a piece for you.

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems

By N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.
(Author of "My Genes Made Me Do It")

Summary: Recent studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse. This paper highlights some new and significant considerations that reflect on the question of those mental illnesses and on their possible sources.

The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its diagnostic list of mental disorders in 1973, despite substantial protest (see Socarides, 1995). The A.P.A. was strongly motivated by the desire to reduce the effects of social oppression. However, one effect of the A.P.A.'s action was to add psychiatric authority to gay activists' insistence that homosexuals as a group are as healthy as heterosexuals. This has discouraged publication of research that suggests there may, in fact, be psychiatric problems associated with homosexuality.

In a review of the literature, Gonsiorek (1982) argued there was no data showing mental differences between gays and straights--or if there was any, it could be attributed to social stigma. Similarly, Ross (1988) in a cross-cultural study, found most gays were in the normal psychological range. However some papers did give hints of psychiatric differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. One study (Riess, 1980) used the MMPI, that venerable and well-validated psychological scale, and found that homosexuals showed definite "personal and emotional oversensitivity."

In 1991 the absolute equality of homosexuality and heterosexuality was strongly defended in a paper called "The Empirical Basis for the Demise of the Mental Illness Model" (Gonsiorek, 1991). But not until 1992 was homosexuality dropped from the psychiatric manual used by other nations--the International Classification of Diseases (King and Bartlett, 1999)--so it appears the rest of the world doubted the APA 1973 decision for nearly two decades.

Is homosexuality as healthy as heterosexuality? To answer that question, what is needed are representative samples of homosexual people which study their mental health, unlike the volunteer samples which have, in the past, selected out any disturbed or gender-atypical subjects (such as in the well-known study by Evelyn Hooker). And fortunately, such representative surveys have lately become available.

New Studies Suggest Higher Level of Pathology
One important and carefully conducted study found suicide attempts among homosexuals were six times greater than the average (Remafedi et al. 1998).

Then, more recently, in the Archives of General Psychiatry-- an established and well-respected journal--three papers appeared with extensive accompanying commentary (Fergusson et al. 1999, Herrell et al. 1999, Sandfort et al. 2001, and e.g. Bailey 1999). J. Michael Bailey included a commentary on the above research; Bailey, it should be noted, conducted many of the muchpublicized "gay twin studies" which were used by gay advocates as support for the "born that way" theory. Neil Whitehead, Ph.D.

Bailey said, "These studies contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, and nicotine dependence...The strength of the new studies is their degree of control."

The first study was on male twins who had served in Vietnam (Herrell et al. 1999). It concluded that on average, male homosexuals were 5.1 times more likely to exhibit suicide- related behavior or thoughts than their heterosexual counterparts. Some of this factor of 5.1 was associated with depression and substance abuse, which might or might not be related to the homosexuality. (When these two problems were factored out, the factor of 5 decreased to 2.5; still somewhat significant.) The authors believed there was an independent factor related to suicidality which was probably closely associated with some features of homosexuality itself.

The second study (Fergusson et al. 1999) followed a large New Zealand group from birth to their early twenties. The "birth cohort" method of subject selection is especially reliable and free from most of the biases which bedevil surveys. This study showed a significantly higher occurrence of depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and thoughts about suicide, amongst those who were homosexually active.

The third paper was a Netherlands study (Sandfort et al. 2001) which again showed a higher level of mental-health problems among homosexuals, but remarkably, subjects with HIV infection was not any more likely than those without HIV infection to suffer from mental health problems. People who are HIV-positive should at least be expected to be anxious or depressed!

The paper thus concluded that HIV infection is not a cause of mental health problems--but that stigmatization from society was likely the cause--even in the Netherlands, where alternative lifestyles are more widely accepted than in most other countries. That interpretation of the data is quite unconvincing.

The commentaries on those studies brought up three interesting issues.

1. First, there is now clear evidence that mental health problems are indeed associated with homosexuality. This supports those who opposed the APA actions in 1973. However, the present papers do not answer the question; is homosexuality itself pathological?

2. The papers do show that since only a minority of a nonclinical sample of homosexuals has any diagnosable mental problems (at least by present diagnostic criteria), then most homosexuals are not mentally ill.

In New Zealand, for example, lesbians are about twice as likely to have sought help for mental problems as heterosexual women, but only about 35% of them over their lifespan did so, and never more than 50% (Anon 1995, Saphira and Glover, 2000, Welch et al. 2000) This corresponds with similar findings from the U.S.

Relationship Breakups Motivate Most
Suicide Attempts


There is much more
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country" - Alexis de Tocqueville

crablegs

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2010, 08:23:46 AM »
Thanks for posting CTC.  I actually stumbled upon that on a google search.  

I would need to read the studies that the article cites before I could make a real judgement.  That would take some time, and I don't know if I want to get that deep into it.  

The author does state early in the paper, "In a review of the literature, Gonsiorek (1982) argued there was no data showing mental differences between gays and straights--or if there was any, it could be attributed to social stigma."  However, the studies that he cites seem to make no mention of this.  I beleive this is a huge reason for homosexuality being related to mental illness.  The amount of stigma homosexuals face is unreal, and I can't even imagine how hard it must be for them to deal with a society that views them so negatively.  If the studies the author cites did not control for this variable, then they are basically useless.  I would need to analyze if they controlled for social stigma, and how they set up that control.  

It is not an argument that homosexuals have higher incidence of mental illness, but is the cause of that mental illness simply because they are homosexual, or because of something else such as the social stigma involved with being homosexual.